charleso
**Member** 
Inactive
UK stamp price goes up to 85 pence in January 2021. How does that compare to other countries?
Posts: 22
What I collect: chess, patent thematics
|
Post by charleso on Nov 6, 2020 10:52:51 GMT
Interesting. In my talk on copyright and philately I refer to the case where Michel sued for copyright infringement in Germany and lost the case because the Court concluded there was nothing original about its numbering system.
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator 
Posts: 5,908 
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Nov 7, 2020 14:45:53 GMT
Just giving this thread a bump, as I just moved over the posts from Charles' ( charleso) intro thread over to the discussion. Thanks to Alex ( vikingeck) for the suggestion, as it is getting to be an interesting topic! Stay stampy, all!  |
|
ameis33
Member 
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 546
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
|
Post by ameis33 on Nov 8, 2020 10:30:09 GMT
It's difficult for me to take part to a zoom meeting, but the question of copyright of stamps numbering system always got my curiosity...
Assigning a number to a stamp can be realy considered an "intellectual work" to be protected by the copyright law?
Should i put on my self-created album pages the numbers taken by any catalog and should i sell them, would i be subject of infringment of the copyright law?
|
|
angore
Member
Posts: 5,697
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
|
Post by angore on Nov 8, 2020 11:20:10 GMT
ameis33 said: If you used Scott numbers, you would get a cease and desist letter from Amos Publishing. The courts decide if it was infringement if you decided to ignore them and they take you to court. Interesting Colnect.com assigns an "Sn" number to stamps in their online database that happens to correspond with the Scott number. Their legal reach is likely less internationally and may want to avoid what happened to Michel but who knows. When going to court over IP, you want to know your courts. For example, a company I used to work for that was big on IP always wanted it written so cases would be tried in NY courts,
|
|
dorincard
Member
Posts: 1,622
What I collect: My focus is on Wild Mammals on maximum cards. Occasionally, I get or create maximum cards with other animals, or any other topic.
|
Post by dorincard on Nov 13, 2020 14:58:25 GMT
Welcome, Charles!
Please tell us how was it legal for so many writers to write and sell books with photos of ALL kinds of stamps?
How is it legal to see millions of images of postcards on the internet, or in books about postcards?
For example, how can I write and sell a book about maxicards (therefore showing stamps, postmarks and postcards), WITHOUT having to get permission for every single item? Very important. 😉
Thank you very much, Charles!
|
|
cjd
Member
Posts: 1,107
|
Post by cjd on Nov 14, 2020 2:05:50 GMT
Welcome. I assume there isn't one single stamp that combines both of your interests? Patents and chess?
A cover is easy to imagine, but, a stamp is rather harder to imagine?
|
|
Jerry B
Departed
Rest in Peace
Marietta, Georgia USA
Posts: 1,485
|
Post by Jerry B on Nov 14, 2020 21:14:10 GMT
Hi Charles
It took me a while to think about the topic of catalog numbers. I almost concur that they cannot copyright numbers such as 1,2 .... However, each publisher has devised number prefixes. Are you saying that these prefixes also have no basis for copyright? If the prefixes do have a basis for copyright, doesn't it follow that the entire number, such as C123, has a copyright basis?
Jerry B
|
|
charleso
**Member**
Inactive
UK stamp price goes up to 85 pence in January 2021. How does that compare to other countries?
Posts: 22
What I collect: chess, patent thematics
|
Post by charleso on Nov 18, 2020 12:30:34 GMT
Welcome. I assume there isn't one single stamp that combines both of your interests? Patents and chess?
A cover is easy to imagine, but, a stamp is rather harder to imagine?
If there were such a stamp, I'd have to buy two of them, one for each of my collections. But sadly, no, I am not aware of such a stamp. My nearest are stamps portraying Albert Einstein, who worked for many years in the Swiss Patent Office AND loved playing chess (he wasn't that strong a player). Ideally, I'd want a stamp showing someone who invented a chess-playing machine. |
|
charleso
**Member**
Inactive
UK stamp price goes up to 85 pence in January 2021. How does that compare to other countries?
Posts: 22
What I collect: chess, patent thematics
|
Post by charleso on Nov 18, 2020 12:36:15 GMT
Welcome, Charles! Please tell us how was it legal for so many writers to write and sell books with photos of ALL kinds of stamps? How is it legal to see millions of images of postcards on the internet, or in books about postcards? For example, how can I write and sell a book about maxicards (therefore showing stamps, postmarks and postcards), WITHOUT having to get permission for every single item? Very important. 😉 Thank you very much, Charles! Strictly speaking, it isn't legal, but stamp-issuing authorities turn a blind eye to it, no doubt because it is hard to police and also because it arguably helps sales of their products. There are exceptions to copyright for education purposes, or for criticism or review, but they would probably not include permission to copy in a book that is charged for. Auction houses have permission to reproduce images of items in their auctions. I do cover this interesting aspect of copyright and philately in a powerpoint, which I am happy to set up as a zoom presentation if someone can help me set it up. |
|
charleso
**Member**
Inactive
UK stamp price goes up to 85 pence in January 2021. How does that compare to other countries?
Posts: 22
What I collect: chess, patent thematics
|
Post by charleso on Nov 18, 2020 12:40:17 GMT
Hi Charles It took me a while to think about the topic of catalog numbers. I almost concur that they cannot copyright numbers such as 1,2 .... However, each publisher has devised number prefixes. Are you saying that these prefixes also have no basis for copyright? If the prefixes do have a basis for copyright, doesn't it follow that the entire number, such as C123, has a copyright basis? Jerry B It really depends how much intellectual effort went into choosing such prefixes (or suffixes). I am personally dubious that putting a prefix or suffix to a catalogue number involves sufficient intellectual input to justify claiming protection - but it would need a court case to confirm that. |
|
Londonbus1
Moderator
Cinderella Stamp Club Member 3059
Posts: 5,064
What I collect: Wonderland; 1912 Jubilee International Stamp Exhibition, London ('Ideal' Stamp, ephemera); French Cinderellas with an emphasis on Poster Stamps; Israel and Palestine Cinderellas ; Jewish National Fund Stamps, Labels and Tags; London 2010, A Festival of Stamps (anything); South Africa 1937 Coronation issue of KGVI, singles or bi-lingual pairs.
|
Post by Londonbus1 on Nov 18, 2020 14:02:25 GMT
Moderator note: I moved some posts from Charles' Intro thread as they are better served here.
|
|
charleso
**Member**
Inactive
UK stamp price goes up to 85 pence in January 2021. How does that compare to other countries?
Posts: 22
What I collect: chess, patent thematics
|
Post by charleso on Nov 18, 2020 15:21:09 GMT
It's difficult for me to take part to a zoom meeting, but the question of copyright of stamps numbering system always got my curiosity... Assigning a number to a stamp can be realy considered an "intellectual work" to be protected by the copyright law? Should i put on my self-created album pages the numbers taken by any catalog and should i sell them, would i be subject of infringment of the copyright law? The risk involved is tiny. Go head and do it. |
|
charleso
**Member**
Inactive
UK stamp price goes up to 85 pence in January 2021. How does that compare to other countries?
Posts: 22
What I collect: chess, patent thematics
|
Post by charleso on Nov 18, 2020 15:23:54 GMT
ameis33 said: If you used Scott numbers, you would get a cease and desist letter from Amos Publishing. The courts decide if it was infringement if you decided to ignore them and they take you to court. Interesting Colnect.com assigns an "Sn" number to stamps in their online database that happens to correspond with the Scott number. Their legal reach is likely less internationally and may want to avoid what happened to Michel but who knows. When going to court over IP, you want to know your courts. For example, a company I used to work for that was big on IP always wanted it written so cases would be tried in NY courts, I actually think the risk involved is tiny. |
|
|
|
Post by mdroth on Nov 18, 2020 15:27:27 GMT
If you sell your pages - your album - (one album/set of pages) you won't have any trouble.
If you tried to sell blank pages - as an 'album page dealer' - with Scott numbers - you would hear from them quickly. They would want you to buy a license...
|
|
gatodiablo
Member
Posts: 456
What I collect: Places I've been, and places I want to go.
|
Post by gatodiablo on Nov 18, 2020 22:40:22 GMT
Ideally, I'd want a stamp showing someone who invented a chess-playing machine. There are a lot of stamps featuring Steve Jobs - the Chess app was "essential" to the Apple operating system for years, frustrating all of us who ever tried to delete it.  Oh, and I never beat it.  |
|
ameis33
Member
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 546
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
|
Post by ameis33 on Nov 18, 2020 22:42:13 GMT
I don't really want to sell my pages, but my question was just to raise another one: how it is possible to put the copyright on numbers? You may say: it's not numbers, but a numbering system... It doesn't change a lot i must say... an enumeration is just a one-to-one correspondence between the elements of a set (the stamps) and integer numbers... Just put the stamps one after the others (by issuing date, i.e.) and then start counting from 1... I find difficult to understand how this can be considered "an intellectual work"... Is it protected? Ok, then start from 2...
Maybe i will put the copyright on the alphabet (ABCDE... i don't think someone else already did?)
To protect a catalog is pretty another thing...
|
|
ausbrasilien
Member
Inactive
Posts: 103
What I collect: German Area
|
Post by ausbrasilien on Nov 18, 2020 23:57:45 GMT
In fact this is a very interesting conversation. Copy Rights are different for each jurisdiction, here in Brazil there is a loose inforcement. I know that the intellectual property rights are very serious business in the USA. I know that Germany has funny laws on image rights...
The idea that a foreign postal administration or an artist would sue for image rights from a stamp is very complicated to discuss in Brazilian jurisdiction, however here we always say that we never know what will come from the head of a judge or the bottom of a baby...
|
|
angore
Member
Posts: 5,697
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
|
Post by angore on Nov 19, 2020 11:31:32 GMT
Here is the link to the Scott / Krause lawsuit for historical reference. I still do not think by Krause creating the cross reference as a victory. Amos Media purchased Krause later supposedly for the Minkus albums business. web.archive.org/web/20120210035330/http:/www.stamps.net/opinion6.htmJanuary 26, 1999 Linn's Stamp News Puts Happy Face On Krause-Scott Lawsuit Settlement Stuart Morrissey, vice president of Scott Publishing Company, was at least partially right when he said that the settlement of the Scott-Krause Publications lawsuit means that, "...everyone wins, especially the collector." In the article in Linn's Stamp News (February 1) by Rob Haeseler which announces the settlement, everyone seems to be putting a Happy Face on a contentious litigation that was both expensive and time-consuming. Krause, owners of Stamp Collector, Linn's chief competitor in the philatelic periodical business, published the newest edition of the Minkus U.S. Stamp Catalog about a year ago---and in which the Minkus numbers were cross-referenced with those of Scott. The latter immediately filed suit asking for both injunctive relief and monetary damages. They didn't get the former and whether they ever got the latter is anyone's guess. [Our guess: all Krause will ever pay Scott is a simple licensing fee for use of the Scott numbering system.] Yes, the collector did "win" with the announcement of this settlement---but so did a lot of other people. And it is more than possible that Haeseler was a bit optimistic when he said that, "Scott defended itself successfully against an all-out attack by Krause's lawyers." One would have to be living in an Ivory Tower to believe that, in the end, Scott was "successful" in this litigation. Krause had retained the services of the nation's most respected trademark/copyright law firm (Jacobs, Holman and Stern of Washington, D.C.) and filed a 54-page brief challenging practically every aspect of Scott's copyright protection and licensing practices over a seven-decade period. In the end, the Krause defense of Scott's litigation imposed upon Scott the absolute necessity to review the seriously uneven policing of its licensing policies---and in essence, to cave in to something they never wanted to do: give their chief competitor a license to use their numbering system. But in a sense, Haeseler was only slightly correct in assuming the success of Scott in this litigation. The settlement avoids a costly jury trial---and the problems that Scott would have had in trying to defend a very sketchy, uneven history of both maintaining the copyrights on its catalogs and licensing widespread use of its numbering system. One should also take serious notice of a major statement by Morrissey in the body of the Haeseler article: "In the future, Scott will try its best to be flexible in finding appropriate arrangements for those interested in licensing Scott numbers." Clearly a result of this litigation, this remark represents a sea change in Scott's recent arbitrary policies in licensing its numbering system. It can be hoped that the remark represents Scott's new understanding that these policies have, in recent years, become onerous and life-threatening (from the standpoint of many dealers and small software manufacturers) to many who are involved in the stamp trade. We read---from cover to cover---the 54-page brief filed by the Krause attorneys when it was placed before the Federal District Court of Southern Ohio in May, 1998. [You can locate documents on this lawsuit right here on the web by going to the KnowX.Com public records search service. There is a small fee.] It was an astute and high-impact tour de force in copyright law as it relates to what some have come to believe was an unfair monopoly by Scott of a numbering system that has long since been in the public domain. It should be easy for most philatelists to discern that the brief had one key purpose: to force Scott into allowing Krause the use of its numbering system. This it accomplished. Certainly a very costly lesson for Scott. |
|
ausbrasilien
Member
Inactive
Posts: 103
What I collect: German Area
|
Post by ausbrasilien on Nov 19, 2020 13:30:05 GMT
I believe that a cross-reference based litigation might not prosper in most of South American countries, but the USA are much more advanced in intellectual property litigation than us...
|
|
salentin
Member
collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 6,506
|
Post by salentin on Nov 19, 2020 14:00:43 GMT
Just put the stamps one after the others (by issuing date, i.e.) and then start counting from 1... I find difficult to understand how this can be considered "an intellectual work"... Is it protected? I think you would not have a problem in doing so.Simply because no catalogue (as far as I know) uses a listing-system like that. All put together stamps in sets,often regardless of the chronologic issuing dates.So if you would create a listing on a pure chronologic line,you would create something completely new. But it would look somewhat untidy,wouldn´t it ?
|
|
Jerry B
Departed
Rest in Peace
Marietta, Georgia USA
Posts: 1,485
|
Post by Jerry B on Nov 20, 2020 9:23:18 GMT
Hi
In my STAMPREF tables I use and/or cross reference catalog numbers from multiple publishers. I checked and was advised not to publish the tables unless I had specific written permissions to use the various catalog numbers. Thus, anyone can have a copy of StampRef tables with the proviso that they not be published.
Jerry B
|
|
renden
Member
Posts: 9,162
What I collect: Canada-USA-France-Lithuania-Austria--Germany-Mauritius-French Colonies in Africa
|
Post by renden on Nov 20, 2020 13:55:56 GMT
@jerry B - where or how does one get those STAMREF tables ? Thanks
René
|
|
Jerry B
Departed
Rest in Peace
Marietta, Georgia USA
Posts: 1,485
|
Post by Jerry B on Nov 20, 2020 14:30:31 GMT
Hi renden Try this link: StampRefs
If It doesn't work let me know by e-mail. Keep all, or any, of the tables in one spot (together) else the index will not work. Also, remember the tables are for personal use only and not to be published. Jerry B |
|
charleso
**Member**
Inactive
UK stamp price goes up to 85 pence in January 2021. How does that compare to other countries?
Posts: 22
What I collect: chess, patent thematics
|
Post by charleso on Nov 24, 2020 11:56:52 GMT
Here is the link to the Scott / Krause lawsuit for historical reference. I still do not think by Krause creating the cross reference as a victory. Amos Media purchased Krause later supposedly for the Minkus albums business. web.archive.org/web/20120210035330/http:/www.stamps.net/opinion6.htmJanuary 26, 1999 Linn's Stamp News Puts Happy Face On Krause-Scott Lawsuit Settlement Stuart Morrissey, vice president of Scott Publishing Company, was at least partially right when he said that the settlement of the Scott-Krause Publications lawsuit means that, "...everyone wins, especially the collector." In the article in Linn's Stamp News (February 1) by Rob Haeseler which announces the settlement, everyone seems to be putting a Happy Face on a contentious litigation that was both expensive and time-consuming. Krause, owners of Stamp Collector, Linn's chief competitor in the philatelic periodical business, published the newest edition of the Minkus U.S. Stamp Catalog about a year ago---and in which the Minkus numbers were cross-referenced with those of Scott. The latter immediately filed suit asking for both injunctive relief and monetary damages. They didn't get the former and whether they ever got the latter is anyone's guess. [Our guess: all Krause will ever pay Scott is a simple licensing fee for use of the Scott numbering system.] Yes, the collector did "win" with the announcement of this settlement---but so did a lot of other people. And it is more than possible that Haeseler was a bit optimistic when he said that, "Scott defended itself successfully against an all-out attack by Krause's lawyers." One would have to be living in an Ivory Tower to believe that, in the end, Scott was "successful" in this litigation. Krause had retained the services of the nation's most respected trademark/copyright law firm (Jacobs, Holman and Stern of Washington, D.C.) and filed a 54-page brief challenging practically every aspect of Scott's copyright protection and licensing practices over a seven-decade period. In the end, the Krause defense of Scott's litigation imposed upon Scott the absolute necessity to review the seriously uneven policing of its licensing policies---and in essence, to cave in to something they never wanted to do: give their chief competitor a license to use their numbering system. But in a sense, Haeseler was only slightly correct in assuming the success of Scott in this litigation. The settlement avoids a costly jury trial---and the problems that Scott would have had in trying to defend a very sketchy, uneven history of both maintaining the copyrights on its catalogs and licensing widespread use of its numbering system. One should also take serious notice of a major statement by Morrissey in the body of the Haeseler article: "In the future, Scott will try its best to be flexible in finding appropriate arrangements for those interested in licensing Scott numbers." Clearly a result of this litigation, this remark represents a sea change in Scott's recent arbitrary policies in licensing its numbering system. It can be hoped that the remark represents Scott's new understanding that these policies have, in recent years, become onerous and life-threatening (from the standpoint of many dealers and small software manufacturers) to many who are involved in the stamp trade. We read---from cover to cover---the 54-page brief filed by the Krause attorneys when it was placed before the Federal District Court of Southern Ohio in May, 1998. [You can locate documents on this lawsuit right here on the web by going to the KnowX.Com public records search service. There is a small fee.] It was an astute and high-impact tour de force in copyright law as it relates to what some have come to believe was an unfair monopoly by Scott of a numbering system that has long since been in the public domain. It should be easy for most philatelists to discern that the brief had one key purpose: to force Scott into allowing Krause the use of its numbering system. This it accomplished. Certainly a very costly lesson for Scott. Thank you - very helpful |
|
charleso
**Member**
Inactive
UK stamp price goes up to 85 pence in January 2021. How does that compare to other countries?
Posts: 22
What I collect: chess, patent thematics
|
Post by charleso on Nov 24, 2020 11:58:22 GMT
I don't really want to sell my pages, but my question was just to raise another one: how it is possible to put the copyright on numbers? You may say: it's not numbers, but a numbering system... It doesn't change a lot i must say... an enumeration is just a one-to-one correspondence between the elements of a set (the stamps) and integer numbers... Just put the stamps one after the others (by issuing date, i.e.) and then start counting from 1... I find difficult to understand how this can be considered "an intellectual work"... Is it protected? Ok, then start from 2... Maybe i will put the copyright on the alphabet (ABCDE... i don't think someone else already did?) To protect a catalog is pretty another thing... You are right. I don't believe there is much protection for an obvious numbering system. |
|
charleso
**Member**
Inactive
UK stamp price goes up to 85 pence in January 2021. How does that compare to other countries?
Posts: 22
What I collect: chess, patent thematics
|
Post by charleso on Nov 24, 2020 12:00:37 GMT
It's difficult for me to take part to a zoom meeting, but the question of copyright of stamps numbering system always got my curiosity... Assigning a number to a stamp can be realy considered an "intellectual work" to be protected by the copyright law? Should i put on my self-created album pages the numbers taken by any catalog and should i sell them, would i be subject of infringment of the copyright law? The risk involved is tiny. Go head and do it. I will be covering this topic in a forthcoming zoom talk I will be offering to Stamp Forum |
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,908
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Nov 24, 2020 13:32:32 GMT
Many thanks to Charles ( charleso) for keeping this discussion thread going. From his previous post: Yes, indeed, thanks to Charles' generosity, we now have a new thread to announce a Zoom presentation on this very subject: thestampforum.boards.net/thread/7878/tsf-virtual-copyright-patents-presentationSo, if you are interested in seeing a live presentation from Charles, please access the referenced thread to register your availability and date preference. To be clear, the intent is for Charles to do the presentation once in the near future, and we will decide the date based on which one is better for the majority of members who can attend. In the meantime, please don't hesitate to continue the online discussion here in this thread! |
|
henrye
**Member**
Inactive
Posts: 41
|
Post by henrye on Dec 4, 2020 15:09:31 GMT
Considering that the uses here would be for informative and educational purposes, using stamp images (even copyrighted ones) will probably fall under "Fair Use". Check out this interesting article: www.copyright.gov/fair-use/more-info.html |
|
