salmantino
Member 
Posts: 287
What I collect: Specialised UK and overprints, Ireland, Netherlands, Spanish permanent stamps (1936 - ), Canary Islands airmail stamps (1936 - 1938).
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Post by salmantino on Feb 28, 2024 17:41:25 GMT
marbles , the 'bantams' to which this thread is dedicated are the small ½d stamps at the bottom. They have the plate number close to the vinculum on each side of the stamp. Please, provide a clear scan of the stamps. Otherwise we can not tell. For the Penny Black, that I think is (a stunning example) from plate 6, it really requires a scan and not a photograph to be certain. You can use this site for identification: maltesex.com/cgi-bin/doctarr/dtaccess?mode=platingEnter 'leftX rightY' where X and Y are the letters in the lower left and lower right corner, respectively. Click on 'search' and open the file that says 'NISSEN' in the column headed 'Plate Number.' These show you examples of the twelve plates for that position in the sheet. Check the position of the corner letter. Also look at missing or partial rays of the stars in the top corners and look at the lines of the corner boxes. It is not always sufficient to only look at corner letters. Checking the other details will confirm your finding. But keep in mind there may have been wear over time, or there may have been a repair.
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tomiseksj
Moderator 
Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,387 
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Feb 28, 2024 17:50:49 GMT
Just wanting to know how you identify the plate... I recommend that you go to the beginning of this thread and review the posts that have been made, many of which address identifying the plate number. This post, in particular, shows you where the plate numbers are located and what they look like. |
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marbles
Member
Posts: 101
What I collect: Nothing too expensive for commonwealth
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Post by marbles on Feb 28, 2024 18:02:58 GMT
Just wanting to know how you identify the plate... I recommend that you go to the beginning of this thread and review the posts that have been made, many of which address identifying the plate number. This post, in particular, shows you where the plate numbers are located and what they look like. Apologies I am still new at this. I will start at the beginning of the thread. I don’t have a scanner just an iPad. Again apologies |
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tomiseksj
Moderator
Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,387
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Feb 28, 2024 18:08:22 GMT
No need to apologize. I know that you're new at this and I'm just trying to provide guidance to help you along.
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marbles
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Posts: 101
What I collect: Nothing too expensive for commonwealth
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Post by marbles on Feb 28, 2024 18:24:12 GMT
Thank you. I have just found 3 bantams from 1840. Not very good though now I know that they are half the size. Should these go elsewhere  |
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stainlessb
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qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
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What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Feb 28, 2024 18:38:23 GMT
marbles I'm not sure I understand your question precisely, but the half penny bantams were first printed in 1870. What catalogue are you using?
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marbles
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Posts: 101
What I collect: Nothing too expensive for commonwealth
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Post by marbles on Feb 28, 2024 18:54:26 GMT
I haven’t. We use the Stanley gibbons but this where his dad had them. I will need to put them in 1870. Thank you
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salmantino
Member
Posts: 287
What I collect: Specialised UK and overprints, Ireland, Netherlands, Spanish permanent stamps (1936 - ), Canary Islands airmail stamps (1936 - 1938).
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Post by salmantino on Feb 28, 2024 18:55:18 GMT
marbles , until 1 October 1870, the lowest postal rate in the UK was 1d. What we know as a postcard was first used in Austria-Hungary, in October 1869. The postcard soon was adopted by many other countries, such as the UK. A special rate of ½d for postcards was introduced. It became effective on 1 October 1870. The 'bantam' was issued to cover the postcard rate. Before 1870, there was no ½d stamp and, consequently, no 'bantam.'
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vikingeck
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Posts: 3,551
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Feb 28, 2024 20:07:24 GMT
Hi marbles, it looks like Dad’s notes have “Matched Pair”. Beside the black and the penny red. That is significant and please do keep the two together . Within a year of issue of the penny black the Post Office, concerned about cheating cleaning off the postmark for re-use , decided to change the colour of the stamp to red brown so the cancel would show up better and be harder to clean. In 1841 the same plates used for the penny black were cleaned and used to print again in red. Your two stamps were both printed from the same plate , and the matching letters BB show they were at the same position on the sheet of 240. Ie the second stamp in on the second row of the sheet .Hence “ Matched Pair” It seems from your photo that you have at least one more penny black . It looks as though the scissors have come too close to the right side so at best it will only have 3 margins unlike the lovely margins on your first one. |
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salmantino
Member
Posts: 287
What I collect: Specialised UK and overprints, Ireland, Netherlands, Spanish permanent stamps (1936 - ), Canary Islands airmail stamps (1936 - 1938).
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Post by salmantino on Feb 28, 2024 20:23:54 GMT
If they are matching stamps, the Penny Black cannot be from plate 6.
It might be a good idea to check it against the NISSEN example for plate 2.
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marbles
Member
Posts: 101
What I collect: Nothing too expensive for commonwealth
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Post by marbles on Feb 28, 2024 20:53:13 GMT
Hi marbles , it looks like Dad’s notes have “Matched Pair”. Beside the black and the penny red. That is significant and please do keep the two together . Within a year of issue of the penny black the Post Office, concerned about cheating cleaning off the postmark for re-use , decided to change the colour of the stamp to red brown so the cancel would show up better and be harder to clean. In 1841 the same plates used for the penny black were cleaned and used to print again in red. Your two stamps were both printed from the same plate , and the matching letters BB show they were at the same position on the sheet of 240. Ie the second stamp in on the second row of the sheet .Hence “ Matched Pair” It seems from your photo that you have at least one more penny black . It looks as though the scissors have come too close to the right side so at best it will only have 3 margins unlike the lovely margins on your first one. Yes they are a matched pair. I think my hubby bought them for his dad donkeys years ago. I definitely won’t separate them. Yes the other penny black has been cut to close but it is staying where it is. All I can say is I am learning a lot but can only take so much in at a time. There is too much to learn and never been interested in stamps but since hubby inherited them I thought why not. He knows a lot but not you guys. Thank you |
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marbles
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Posts: 101
What I collect: Nothing too expensive for commonwealth
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Post by marbles on Feb 28, 2024 21:01:57 GMT
Sorry I meant not as you all on the forum..
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rod222
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Posts: 11,104
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Feb 28, 2024 21:06:46 GMT
rod222 , why do you say BRIDGEND would not fit? Hi Kim, well, I was thinking the space between D and E was too wide, now you have questioned me, I think it may be OK, and BRIGEND actually seems to fit length of arc of town letters. I still keep seeing an "O" too, but that maybe typical of pmks playing tricks on us. Time to search for a BRIDGEND Pmk to compare 1909 Bridgend still using single ring CDS (with time added) I think I'll go for Bridgend Only 12 Pmks in Britain beginning with "Brid", 2 with 8 letters ...Bridport and Bridgend (Scotland and Wales)  |
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khj
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Posts: 1,524
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Post by khj on Feb 28, 2024 21:30:16 GMT
Yeah, the "D" and "G" seem to be a little obnoxiously fat in the postmarks -- I'm used to seeing them skinnier for other countries. I learned my lesson from the Horsham postmark in the other thread. I had originally discounted it because I thought too short. My problem is I tend to write my "N" and "M" very narrow, and forget how wide it can be in type-setting.
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Post by michael on Feb 29, 2024 8:54:27 GMT
marbles , until 1 October 1870, the lowest postal rate in the UK was 1d. What we know as a postcard was first used in Austria-Hungary, in October 1869. The postcard soon was adopted by many other countries, such as the UK. A special rate of ½d for postcards was introduced. It became effective on 1 October 1870. The 'bantam' was issued to cover the postcard rate. Before 1870, there was no ½d stamp and, consequently, no 'bantam.'
I believe you maybe mistaken on why the bantem was issued, my understanding is that the bantem was required because the postage rate on inland newspapers and other inland printed matter, not exceeding 2oz in weight, was reduced on 1 October 1870 to ½d (reference E.D. Bacon).
I know little about postcards but postcard websites say that yes, as you correctly state, they were introduced in 1870, but the only ones that could be used were pre-stamped postal stationery sold by the Post Office. It wasn't until 1894 that adhesive stamps were allowed on postcards, well after the bantem was replaced in 1880.
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salmantino
Member
Posts: 287
What I collect: Specialised UK and overprints, Ireland, Netherlands, Spanish permanent stamps (1936 - ), Canary Islands airmail stamps (1936 - 1938).
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Post by salmantino on Feb 29, 2024 9:02:11 GMT
marbles , until 1 October 1870, the lowest postal rate in the UK was 1d. What we know as a postcard was first used in Austria-Hungary, in October 1869. The postcard soon was adopted by many other countries, such as the UK. A special rate of ½d for postcards was introduced. It became effective on 1 October 1870. The 'bantam' was issued to cover the postcard rate. Before 1870, there was no ½d stamp and, consequently, no 'bantam.'
I believe you maybe mistaken on why the bantem was issued, my understanding is that the bantem was required because the postage rate on inland newspapers and other inland printed matter, not exceeding 2oz in weight, was reduced on 1 October 1870 to ½d (reference E.D. Bacon).
I know little about postcards but postcard websites say that yes, as you correctly state, they were introduced in 1870, but the only ones that could be used were pre-stamped postal stationery sold by the Post Office. It wasn't until 1894 that adhesive stamps were allowed on postcards, well after the bantem was replaced in 1880.
You are correct that they were issued for the printed matter. The two things coincided. The lower printed matterrate had not been considered before the postcard became a popular item. The latter is likely to have been the instigator for the rate, the printed matter was the reason for the stamp. |
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rod222
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Posts: 11,104
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Feb 29, 2024 10:16:15 GMT
michael Hi Michael, A British Postcard refused postage, 1880 that may be of interest.  
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wakeybluenose
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Mostly harmless!
Posts: 311
What I collect: GB to 2000 (but definitives to date) / Ireland to 2000 / General WW classics & definitives / ASFEC / SciFi & Fantasy Literature / Local History
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Post by wakeybluenose on Mar 20, 2024 0:59:20 GMT
This is probably as far as I can go with this page!  |
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stainlessb
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What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 20, 2024 14:23:59 GMT
I think that is a lovely page! ...and the same empty spot as mine!
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marbles
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Posts: 101
What I collect: Nothing too expensive for commonwealth
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Post by marbles on Mar 20, 2024 19:34:04 GMT
Is this a good picture of the bantams which I know what they are  Not sure how to tell the plate numbers yet lol |
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stainlessb
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What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 20, 2024 20:09:51 GMT
For forum folks to help with plat6e numbers , we'd need a,... more close-up of just a single stamp, and sometimes a close=up of the area where the plate number is located.
If you roughly divid the stamp in half (top and bottom), the plate number will be located above./below the 'equator' just inside the denomination, in the scrollwork area. Iy can be hard to see sometimes, but if you go back through this thread from the beginning I believ wou will find examples of most all plate numbers.
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vikingeck
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Posts: 3,551
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Mar 20, 2024 20:16:37 GMT
Afraid the images are not sharp enough to spot the Plate numbers which lie between the 1/2 and the Queen's head on each side. The best way to see them is to turn through 90 degrees.
Incidentally the paper adhering to the back does not help these stamps appearance. I strongly recommend soaking in clean water for 10-15 minutes to remove the stamps from the untidy paper not much you can do about the missing corner on the first one, but the other two will look better of a clean and tidy.
Water will not harm these stamps !
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marbles
Member
Posts: 101
What I collect: Nothing too expensive for commonwealth
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Post by marbles on Mar 20, 2024 21:22:18 GMT
Thank you I will try that tomorrow morning. About soaking being new I wouldn’t dare attempt it
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,551
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Mar 20, 2024 21:35:15 GMT
For the vast majority of stamps soaking and then drying off on kitchen towel is easy and safe. Stamps, particularly these old Victorian line engraved issues are robust, and a half hour soak can actually do the world of good .
So go on bite the bullet. Don't be timid, you will not do any harm, it is an every day technique we all use. Get a small bowl with a cupful of clean water, immerse your bantams for anything up to 20 mins until the backing paper slips off and the stamp is free. Liberated !
using tongs lay it face down on a sheet of clean Kitchen towel and pat off the excess water and leave to dry.
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,551
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Mar 20, 2024 21:55:23 GMT
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marbles
Member
Posts: 101
What I collect: Nothing too expensive for commonwealth
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Post by marbles on Mar 21, 2024 9:39:37 GMT
Afraid the images are not sharp enough to spot the Plate numbers which lie between the 1/2 and the Queen's head on each side. The best way to see them is to turn through 90 degrees. Incidentally the paper adhering to the back does not help these stamps appearance. I strongly recommend soaking in clean water for 10-15 minutes to remove the stamps from the untidy paper not much you can do about the missing corner on the first one, but the other two will look better of a clean and tidy. Water will not harm these stamps ! Here is the one stamp I took a picture of. Sorry I don’t have the equipment you all have.  |
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stainlessb
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What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 21, 2024 14:27:14 GMT
Is this taken with your phone? If so, you should be able to zoom in to get the image to fill the frame/window.
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Ryan
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Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,754
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Mar 24, 2024 3:31:59 GMT
... you should be able to zoom in to get the image to fill the frame/window. The photos posted by marbles are hosted on ImgBB - if you click once on the image, that takes you to the ImgBB page that holds the image. If you then right-click on the image and choose "open image in new tab" (or whatever the equivalent is for your browser), you will get an image you can click on (left click, the normal way this time) to toggle from a "fit the screen" image to one that is at the image's full resolution. I've nabbed a screen capture of the last image - plate 12?  Ryan |
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stainlessb
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What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 24, 2024 13:52:16 GMT
Ryan I believe you are correct. When I click on the image I get the image in it's own window. Opening in a new tab helps only slightly. And when I zoom in it's pixilates (this was on the image with 3 stamps) I'm using Safari (browser) so perhaps the difference
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