kappa1
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Post by kappa1 on Nov 30, 2021 16:22:29 GMT
Hi - This is my first post on the Forum. I’m hoping some other members can help me figure out whether the cancel on this stamp is a hand-written manuscript cancel, or a manuscript-style handstamp cancel. The stamp appears to be a 1927 Italy Scott #192 50c King Victor Emmanuel III brown/slate. The cancel contains three lines of text and a bottom frame line. The isolated cancel is shown in the image next to the stamp. The top line of text is illegible (to me). The second line contains the letters “ domicil”. The third line contains the text “ dotti Dir. RR.” Has anyone seen a cancel like this? Is there a way to tell if a cancel was applied with a pen or a handstamp? Thanks! Jeff (kappa1) By the way, King Victor Emmanuel III was one of the world’s most prolific numismatists. His collection of more than 100,000 coins is in the National Museum of Rome. He also wrote the 20-volume Corpus Nummorum Italicorum (Catalog of Italian Coins) which catalogued each coin in his collection.
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rex
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Post by rex on Nov 30, 2021 16:58:06 GMT
It is definitely written in pen. The postage stamp was almost certainly used to pay some fiscal tax.
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kosmo
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Post by kosmo on Nov 30, 2021 17:02:05 GMT
I'm not good at Italian cancellations, but I think it's a handwritten note about a change of residence.The letter was not received by the addressee for this reason and was returned. Such objects should be seen completely.
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kosmo
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Post by kosmo on Nov 30, 2021 17:05:23 GMT
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ameis33
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Post by ameis33 on Nov 30, 2021 17:25:27 GMT
Handwritten cancellation are tipical of revenue stamps, so i believe that's the case like it has been already said... Dir. RR could be something like "Direzione Regie ..." The double R is a way to form the plural, like FFSS (Ferrovie dello Stato, State Railways). RR is commonly used for Regie (Real), so direction of Real (something)... I would put it in the section "postal stamps used as revenue stamps". I always get crazy about the perfection of old handwritten texts. Compared to my actual handwrite (or my son's), that's a huge leap... BTW! The first row reads something like maggio... (or muggio...), but ok, too short to get the true meaning of all... BTW2! We all here are stamp collectors, so much more interested in revenue stamps used postally then the opposite... I've tried to look if the opposite usage was more/less common, but i didn't get so big results... But how's in the rest of the world? Could you show an examples of postage stamps used as revenue or viceversa? That's just en example (not mine). In this case, the stamps were used in time of war, and i believe with the lack of any kind of supply, this unproper uses were not so "rare". But in 1927, what can we say?
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rex
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Post by rex on Nov 30, 2021 17:39:09 GMT
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kosmo
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Post by kosmo on Nov 30, 2021 18:02:50 GMT
I am inclined to believe that this is a tax repeal. But show me the departures of this period in Italy?
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kosmo
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Post by kosmo on Nov 30, 2021 18:06:20 GMT
If there is an inscription about the place of residence, then it is unlikely that this is a tax cancellation!
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ameis33
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What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
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Post by ameis33 on Nov 30, 2021 18:11:11 GMT
Do you mean to show you italian revenues in use in the first half of the century? Here you have an online catalog xoomer.virgilio.it/cbussoli/By my side, i don't collect fiscal stamps, so i'm not the right people. Unlike postage stamps, there are a lot of branches depending on the use. For passport, for VAT payment, for administrative acts, etc. etc.
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kosmo
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Post by kosmo on Nov 30, 2021 18:15:15 GMT
With a passport, the most important thing.This, perhaps, is the necessary cancellation. Need a passport photo from Italy in 1927)))
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ameis33
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Post by ameis33 on Nov 30, 2021 18:18:45 GMT
Ok, now i've got. It's pretty difficult to understand the meaning of the inscription. Yes, "Domicil" could be related to the address of the recipient... Anyway the stamp would have been cancelled before the delivery, so much before to arrive close to it. The post office could have been without postmarks? ok, but then a simple pen sign (a cross or a scrap) would have been enough, like the pen cancels on the first of Russia. I don't believe it's a postal use.
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kosmo
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Post by kosmo on Nov 30, 2021 18:38:08 GMT
The handwritten cancellation on Russian stamps looks a little different, but who now knows how the post office used to work?
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daniel
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Post by daniel on Nov 30, 2021 20:42:51 GMT
Hi - This is my first post on the Forum. I’m hoping some other members can help me figure out whether the cancel on this stamp is a hand-written manuscript cancel, or a manuscript-style handstamp cancel. The stamp appears to be a 1927 Italy Scott #192 50c King Victor Emmanuel III brown/slate. The cancel contains three lines of text and a bottom frame line. The isolated cancel is shown in the image next to the stamp. The top line of text is illegible (to me). The second line contains the letters “ domicil”. The third line contains the text “ dotti Dir. RR.” Has anyone seen a cancel like this? Is there a way to tell if a cancel was applied with a pen or a handstamp? Thanks! Jeff (kappa1) Here's my input. It must surely be fiscal use. However, that's the best penmanship that I have ever seen on a revenue item, not impossible but compare it with the scribbles in other examples. Moreover, the ink is evenly distributed suggesting that it might not have been 'live ink' but applied by a handstamp. Dir. is probably short for Direttore meaning Director. So, possibly a handstamp.
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Ryan
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What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Nov 30, 2021 21:39:48 GMT
Hi - This is my first post on the Forum. I’m hoping some other members can help me figure out whether the cancel on this stamp is a hand-written manuscript cancel, or a manuscript-style handstamp cancel. Although the discussion of the cancellation in this thread is interesting (for what it's worth, I also vote for a handstamp, given how uniform the colour / strength of the ink is, including areas like the 'c' or the 'o' where a pen would have travelled back and forth over the same piece of paper during cursive handwriting). But I'm most interested in the skill shown in isolating the cancellation from the stamp image. Please describe how you've done such an excellent job at that! Ryan
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kappa1
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Post by kappa1 on Nov 30, 2021 22:35:31 GMT
Thanks, Ryan. To isolate the cancel, I scan the stamp at 600 dpi, then transfer the image to Photoshop. There I use the 'Magic Wand' took to select the cancel. The selected area usually needs a lot of tweaking, especially if the stamp is dark in color. It works great for a dark black handstamp or manuscript cancel on a light colored stamp.
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khj
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Post by khj on Nov 30, 2021 23:21:00 GMT
You can do the same with Gimp. But for sure the isolated cancel pic shown by Jeff is well-presented! When I used Gimp, the results were nowhere as nice as his pic.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Nov 30, 2021 23:50:02 GMT
khjhow do you do it in Gimp?
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khj
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Post by khj on Dec 1, 2021 0:48:52 GMT
I haven't used it in years, so I don't remember the exact location in the menus, and I don't have it installed on this laptop. But the process is the same. In Gimp, you can select an area of color (in this case, you would choose the most solid area of the black manuscript cancel. Then you can filter either that "color" from the image or filter out everything except that "color". To isolate a cancel or overprint, you would choose the latter. Adobe is too rich for this cheapskate, so I don't have Adobe. But I assume the basic process is the same -- Adobe probably has a lot more parameters you can play with. I originally tried it many years ago using Gimp on scans that had weak cancels. The results were not that good for me (RetroReveal is much quicker/better). My eventual intention was to use Gimp to isolate overprints and sharp cancels, but never got around to doing it. I would venture to say that is something that WERT would have been good at doing. Somebody on this board probably has Gimp installed and knows how to use it. Hopefully they can chime in and point out the correct menus/submenus to do it in Gimp.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Dec 1, 2021 1:08:35 GMT
I just started using Gimp On @wert s advice) as when I fully retire I will lose access to the Adobe cloud (and too $$$ for as much as I use)
I will need to play with Gimp more... took me several days to figure out exactly how to place circles /ovals on an image!
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khj
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Post by khj on Dec 1, 2021 1:16:14 GMT
Gimp does have a learning curve. That's one of the reasons I stopped using it. It was just too much trouble each time I wanted to try to do something new/advanced. It is powerful, just have to put the time into it. I'd rather push around little bits of colored paper...
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brightonpete
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Post by brightonpete on Dec 1, 2021 2:34:59 GMT
I'm the same way, khj . I have a few graphics app's, but always forget things when I don't use them ALL the time! Powerful, useful, but I need an instruction manual at my side all the time, which I do not have!
Peter
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