djcmh
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Posts: 768
What I collect: Worldwide
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Post by djcmh on Jan 24, 2022 5:32:09 GMT
Because of my work with Colnect, I use all four of the major worldwide stamp catalogues on a daily basis - Scott, Gibbons, Michel and Yvert. Over time, I've gotten used to some of the quirks in their editorial decisions that differ from those of other catalogues, but it does make me wonder why the catalogues decided to do a specific thing the way they do. Some examples
Scott (and Gibbons) - does not list booklet pane singles as separate varieties from stamps issued in full panes when the stamps are produced deliberately imperforate on one or more sides (something Michel does)
Scott - listing Semi-Postal (Charity) and Airmail stamps separately from the main postage stamp listings (none of the other three do this)
Gibbons - does not list the stamps from multi-stamp souvenir sheets separately from the main souvenir sheet listing (something the other three do)
Yvert - only provides the year of issue for items, never the actual date of issue, in its worldwide catalogues (the other three give exact dates if known)
Michel (and Yvert) - does not provide a separate catalogue number for se-tenant items in full units - only the single stamps (Scott and Gibbons do give unique numbers)
Michel - for souvenir sheets with single stamps, assigns separate numbers for the entire sheet and the single stamp contained within (something the other three do not do)
It definitely makes for some interesting issues when trying to collate the listings of the separate catalogues together into one coherent listing on Colnect.
What are some of the quirks of stamp catalogue publishers that make you wonder why they do things THAT way.
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tobben63
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Stamp eat sleep repeat
Posts: 1,866 
What I collect: I collect to much, world wide!
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Post by tobben63 on Jan 24, 2022 8:23:04 GMT
We need an ISO system for stamps, but that will never happen, or be approved by the by the main big catalogues. I have noticed some of the quirks you mention above. But as I stick to Michel I think they do it right and the other's (catalogues) do it wrong.  (therefore I don't use 'Steiner' pages as they separate the Semi-postal and Air-mail stamps from the rest) I also use Facit as reference for the Scandinavian stamps and of course Norgeskatalogen for Norwegian stamps. As a daily user of Colnect it is good to know of these differences. When dealing with collectors that has grown up with Scott and only know this catalog system, you just have to adapt rather than try to explain that Scott system are not the world system. Then you need Colnect to find the right Scott numbers. Thanks for the great job you do on Colnect djcmhI was very glad when you added Norgeskatalogen to the Norwegian stamps (and I think corrected some errors in the listings). |
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angore
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What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Jan 24, 2022 10:58:55 GMT
I doubt there could ever be a universal system when trying to span the simplified to specialized. Any adoption would depend on dealers and collectors. Numbering systems have evolved over time because they cannot foresee every new development.
One nice feature of Colnect is that it is better at alerting you to variants. Scott does alert at times but it is not consistent.
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Post by dgdecker on Jan 24, 2022 15:59:33 GMT
Thanks for your comments about these annoying differences in the catalogues. I have no preference of catalogues. For me it has been a question of what I used to using. For North America it has been Scott. The rest of the world I use they others you mention based on the country. SG comes in handy for British empire and Commonwealth countries. I have invested in Michel for Germany. Thanks to a site like Colnect I can get the numbers from all major catalogues when needed. It would be great if there was a universal system. That will not happen so I will happily plod along with what we have.
David
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,638
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Jan 24, 2022 16:26:05 GMT
It seems apparent there is no "worldwide" consensus on philatelics. No overhauls of any of the various 'professional views' with (I am finding) much of what is found in the catalogues datong back many years. The revisions offer (perhaps) better images and updated values (which don't seem to reflect the real world....) the most recent issues, but little 'new food for thought" on the earlier versions. With respect to specialists, (and here I am only speaking of France as that's where I'm currently entrenched) there is little to no agreement between the various catalogues/experts regarding die variants and shade/nuances. Most (French) but not all numbering systems follow Yvert & Tellier, but after that the paths start to go in different directions.
One reaches a point where even the catalogues are taken 'with a grain of salt'
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Mr. H
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What I collect: US, Netherlands, Whatever suits my fancy.
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Post by Mr. H on Jan 24, 2022 16:59:41 GMT
I don't like that Scott lists some of the newer sheets/sets as a set and does not list/price out the individual stamps. I trade duplicates using catalog values and don't always have extras of the full set.
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kasvik
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Posts: 542
What I collect: Cancels mostly, especially Sweden Gävle and Lidingö, Switzerland Geneva, Germany Pforzheim
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Post by kasvik on Jan 24, 2022 17:23:30 GMT
Agreed. I started collecting with the Facit catalogue (Nordics). That instantly became my normal. It taught me to pay attention to which sides are perforated; a CB pair as opposed to a BC sort of thing. Facit stresses color nuances--endless lists--many of which no one without van Gogh's disease could possibly see. And it immunized me from some of the distinctions in Michel and Scott.
Since my mama didn't teeth me on it, Scott makes no sense at all. They make full-scale cardinal number distinctions based on which way a die rolled? Cardinal numbers for unique/almost unique stamps? Good grief. The January issue of the American Philatelist (gotta log on as a member) has a useful comparison symposium, marred by a decision to rely on catalogue editors for articles instead of independent critics or a structured comparison. Nowhere near solving the problem djcmh stresses. And Gibbons didn't play along at all.
I forget what the disorder is called. It's a possible explanation for how he saw colors. With that eye, he'd have made a brilliant philatelist. 
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djcmh
Member
Posts: 768
What I collect: Worldwide
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Post by djcmh on Jan 25, 2022 10:06:30 GMT
Here is another one
Gibbons : On self adhesive booklet panes where the backing paper serves as the cover for the booklet, why does Gibbons assing both a booklet pane number AND a complete booklet numbers. You can not separate the pane from the booklet!
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angore
Member
Posts: 5,331
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Jan 25, 2022 12:01:34 GMT
One big gripe for many for Scott is their catalogs are alphabetical spread over 12 books now so if you collect a region you would need to buy the complete set of 6. They do not sell regional printed catalogs but sell electronic versions of countries. On the plus side, if you expand beyond a region you do not need to buy a new catalog. Scott publishes a new set every year. I am sure this is for a revenue stream. In this modern era with so many stamps being issued for just pure profit (endless topical sets and souvenir sheets) I wonder if it is really needed.
The good news is used catalogs from prior years are fairly easy to find at greatly reduced prices.
You can get country pages from the guy that sells extracts from Scott.
Now given the above, I currently have my album pages alphabetically with the exception of Malaysian peninsula and at some point want to group them by region.
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brightonpete
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Post by brightonpete on Jan 25, 2022 14:09:10 GMT
I just bought the 1909 Scott's Catalogue - everything in one compact book.
The thing that irks me with Scott's is why they number stamps out of sequence. I've noticed on various occasions that one set of stamps is placed a few months before in their listings. They do that with like-minded issues. Take for instance Liechtenstein's Views of Vaduz Castle series from 1986-1989 (Scott 832-841). But what about the Bailiff arms types? Not those, and not the "Visitors" type either!
But there are separate issues that they insert months before in their listing. Why? I'll never know. Perhaps they have fixed them in subsequent issues of their catalogue. I am using the 2009 set.
Peter
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youpiao
Member
APS #218885 IPDA #196
Posts: 131
What I collect: Worldwide, mainly classic-era, Topicals: Classical music, Literature/Fiction Writers, Accordions, Novelty stamps.
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Post by youpiao on Jan 26, 2022 0:45:07 GMT
One of my biggest gripes about the Scott Catalogue is their propensity to add, delete, and change catalogue numbers. Unless you have the latest edition, you cannot be sure the catalogue number is the current one. And even if you have the most recent catalogue, next year it may be "wrong."
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djcmh
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Posts: 768
What I collect: Worldwide
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Post by djcmh on Jan 26, 2022 7:35:37 GMT
One of my biggest gripes about the Scott Catalogue is their propensity to add, delete, and change catalogue numbers. Unless you have the latest edition, you cannot be sure the catalogue number is the current one. And even if you have the most recent catalogue, next year it may be "wrong." Some of that can not be avoided though - new research comes to light that means stamps that were listed in the past were not acutally produced and need to be deleted, or information comes about that really requires a reconstruction of the numbering to fit the result of new research (the Ceres issues of Portugal and Colonies that were reorganized in the mid-2010s and completely renumbered to include more variants that Scott had previously not included). Catalogues are never "fixed in stone" - they are subject to revision, improvement and correction based on new research being constantly conducted. Is it a "pain" for collectors who do not want to have to purchase new catalogues every few years, but it ensures that the catalogues as a whole contain information based on the latest philatelic research. |
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angore
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What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Jan 26, 2022 11:13:28 GMT
As for changing catalog numbers. SG does this a lot for modern Machins. In fact, I recall they had a warning when the post new catalog number in GSM assignments. A Machin dealer, John Rice, maintains a price list (a good simple list) and marks catalog number changes.
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Post by PostmasterGS on Jan 26, 2022 12:26:21 GMT
Michel (and Yvert) - does not provide a separate catalogue number for se-tenant items in full units - only the single stamps (Scott and Gibbons do give unique numbers) Can you explain this or provide an example? I use Michel exclusively, so I'm not quite understanding what you mean. |
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djcmh
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Posts: 768
What I collect: Worldwide
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Post by djcmh on Jan 26, 2022 12:34:30 GMT
Michel (and Yvert) - does not provide a separate catalogue number for se-tenant items in full units - only the single stamps (Scott and Gibbons do give unique numbers) Can you explain this or provide an example? I use Michel exclusively, so I'm not quite understanding what you mean. Here are two screenies. First is the Scott listing for the Singapore 2001 Art issue, the second the Michel online for the same set. Scott assigns a number to the se-tenant unit (979), Michel simply notes "Viererblok" (Block of Four) without assigning a unique catalogue number for the se-tenant unit, only the single stamps are given unique numbers   |
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brightonpete
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Post by brightonpete on Jan 26, 2022 13:14:15 GMT
Michel definitely has some oddball designations! When there is a block of 4 6, whatever, they have a listing of all the permutations of those stamps. In a block of 6, why not just have the block of 6. Why have a listing of the horizontal strips of 3: 5, 50, 15pf, 10, 15, 5; 15, 5, 10? Vertical strips too! OMG! That in my mind is ridiculous! Who collects like that? All I want is the block with all the stamps. No strips of 2 or 3 whatever, of every combination one can think of! Colnect mirrors those idiot strips too, cluttering up the morass!
Scott's does that part right, a set of 4 i.e.: 1200-1204 also has 1204a for the block of 4. SG is opposite - 1200a for their block of 4. That just makes sense to me. Why clutter up the catalogue pages with a pile of useless (in MY mind) strips?
Peter
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brightonpete
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Post by brightonpete on Jan 26, 2022 13:34:11 GMT
Here is a typical example:
And what's with their numbering system for all the permutations? Good grief! At least have some semblance to the catalogue numbers! Crikey!
Who collects like that? It's like post offices pay Michel in hopes of adding to their coffers!
The only combo I'd want is what they show in the picture: stamp, label, stamp!
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salentin
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collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 5,615
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Post by salentin on Jan 26, 2022 18:48:26 GMT
Peter, it is not my field,but there are plenty of collectors who collect the different se-tenant combinations. You showed an excerpt from a page of the Michel Germany Specialized catalogue. Of course the "Spezial" lists a lot of varieties,many collectors have no interest in. But if you think this is too much information,you should go for the "normal" Germany catalogue. And if you want it even more plain (and cheaper) the Michel Junior will be fine. The number-code for se-tenant stamp combinations is quite simple: W stands for horizontal and so on. If not familiar with that,one has to read the introduction.
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youpiao
Member
APS #218885 IPDA #196
Posts: 131
What I collect: Worldwide, mainly classic-era, Topicals: Classical music, Literature/Fiction Writers, Accordions, Novelty stamps.
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Post by youpiao on Jan 26, 2022 19:01:12 GMT
salentin speaking of Michel Junior, I noticed recently an ad for a Michel Kompakt. Is that the same catalogue under a new name?
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djcmh
Member
Posts: 768
What I collect: Worldwide
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Post by djcmh on Jan 26, 2022 22:49:25 GMT
The good thing is that Michel only lists all permutations of setenant combos for its specialized Germany listings and not for all countries. Colnect only lists permutations on setenants if they are assigned unique catalog numbers by one of the catalogs we support, and all these permutations are then marked as special variants to a single main listing that includes catalog number info for other catalogues that do not parse out the various design combos.
In the end though there are a lot of collectors in Germany who do look for these various permutations. Just a different collecting method to what has developed in the Anglophone collecting world, where Scott and Gibbons have never listed defendants that way in their specialized catalogues so collectors don't consider them different varieties.
That's one thing Colnect highlights is how collectors in different parts of the world approach collecting.
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Beryllium Guy
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Posts: 5,652
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jan 26, 2022 23:24:04 GMT
This has been an interesting discussion so far. Thanks for starting it, djcmh . I suppose that in any field of endeavor, no matter what, it is always nice for practitioners of the trade to be able to share their insights and tips as well as their gripes and pet peeves. Why not, as who knows when another may hold an answer to relieve one of those issues! For starters, I should state that I grew up collecting with Scott Catalogues, so I am most familiar with their system. Since joining TSF, I have used and learned more about other catalogue makers, but Scott is still the publisher I generally tend toward as my first reference. The editorial choice that I find most problematic in Scott is that they do not indicate the watermark and perforation details for each issue, as long as it is the same as it was for the previous issue. I suppose that this must have been originally decided long ago to conserve ink or something, but this way of listing things has misled me more than once over the years, and I know the system! It would be so much nicer if they would just indicate the particulars at the start of each new issue (there is space available), so that there is no need to have to skim back through the listings to find the last previous time that the gauge of the perforations or watermark was listed. I find that I end up wasting a lot of time checking these sorts of things repeatedly, simply because it isn't clearly indicated where it should be. |
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djcmh
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Posts: 768
What I collect: Worldwide
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Post by djcmh on Jan 26, 2022 23:28:22 GMT
The editorial choice that I find most problematic in Scott is that they do not indicate the watermark and perforation details for each issue, as long as it is the same as it was for the previous issue. I suppose that this must have been originally decided long ago to conserve ink or something, but this way of listing things has misled me more than once over the years, and I know the system! It would be so much nicer if they would just indicate the particulars at the start of each new issue (there is space available), so that there is no need to have to skim back through the listings to find the last previous time that the gauge of the perforations or watermark was listed. I find that I end up wasting a lot of time checking these sorts of things repeatedly, simply because it isn't clearly indicated where it should be. Re watermark/perf info Michel does do that for the start of each new set, and Gibbons does as well in its regional catalogues (not sure about their basic Stamps of the World catalogues though) |
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salentin
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collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 5,615
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Post by salentin on Jan 27, 2022 12:12:19 GMT
salentin speaking of Michel Junior, I noticed recently an ad for a Michel Kompakt. Is that the same catalogue under a new name? Yes,it is the same catalogue,just with a new name. |
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jan 27, 2022 12:59:40 GMT
Thanks for your comments, djcmh : I am glad to know that the other catalogues do not follow this editorial choice. I suppose at the end of the day, there will always be editorial decisions made during different eras that were undertaken for different reasons. One of the aspects always to consider is that in many cases, the catalogue makers were also stamp dealers, so sometimes they made editorial choices based on economic reasons, in my opinion. I know that Scott used to be a stamp dealer back in its early days, and Gibbons was and still is today. In that context, for collectors of Cape of Good Hope triangles, it is worth noting that Gibbons has designated certain varieties as SG1 and SG2, making them highly desirable as first issues from COGH, but in reality, they are actually just varieties in the degree of bluing on the stamps, which were made at the same time as SG3 and SG4. The degree of bluing was determined by how wet the paper was when it went through the printing process. In that particular case, Scott does a better job, because they consider deeply versus slightly blued as varieties of numbers 1 and 2, rather than assigning them major numbers on their own. I imagine that Gibbons chose to do the COGH numbering in this way simply to create demand for both deep and slightly blued varieties, which of course, improved their prospects for selling the stamps. So, no matter which publisher one chooses, it seems that there will always be editorial choices that will effect the usability of the catalogues. |
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djcmh
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Posts: 768
What I collect: Worldwide
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Post by djcmh on Jan 29, 2022 5:57:49 GMT
This isn't really a fault of the catalogues but it makes my work at Colnect difficult - catalogues not agreeing on the names of Dies/Types etc Example the two types of C found on Ceylon King George V 3c and 6c definitives with Multiple Crown and CA watermark The below shows Michel's image - the small/narrow c is type I, the large/wide c is type II. Gibbons reverses this, large/wide c is type A, small/narrow c is type B  The two types of c in the Ceylon King George V definitives Just spent ten minutes straightening out Colnect's listings as the original descriptions were based on Michel, and the Gibbons numbers that had been assigned took the descriptions to mean the same as what Gibbons means. |
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angore
Member
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What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Jan 29, 2022 11:22:20 GMT
The same can happen with shades especially when one catalog defines more than another for particular issue.
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seegod1
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Mostly lurking these days, but enjoying everyone's input!
Posts: 164 
What I collect: Canada, Cats, Soccer, Religion, Royalty, Titanic, Stamps on Stamps, Number Ones
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Post by seegod1 on Jan 22, 2023 12:06:58 GMT
Hey all! So here's a question relating to catalogues and how they list things. So as discussed elsewhere, I've been cataloguing some Benin stamps. So I find some stamps in my album not listed in EZ Stamp and go look up my Scott only to find that they are a part of a "disavowed by the Benin Government" series of stamps that appeared in about 2001-2002 or so. Okay, no problem. So my question for your input is this: how would YOU go about cataloguing it in your inventory system, whether it be electronic or not? I know I intend to keep them because I find this an interesting part of postal history as well, and I have several other stamps that meet that criteria. Thoughts? Thanks! |
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djcmh
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What I collect: Worldwide
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Post by djcmh on Jan 22, 2023 14:25:47 GMT
Hey all! So here's a question relating to catalogues and how they list things. So as discussed elsewhere, I've been cataloguing some Benin stamps. So I find some stamps in my album not listed in EZ Stamp and go look up my Scott only to find that they are a part of a "disavowed by the Benin Government" series of stamps that appeared in about 2001-2002 or so. Okay, no problem. So my question for your input is this: how would YOU go about cataloguing it in your inventory system, whether it be electronic or not? I know I intend to keep them because I find this an interesting part of postal history as well, and I have several other stamps that meet that criteria. Thoughts? Thanks! Seegod are these the stamps colnect.com/en/stamps/list/country/1465-Benin_Illegal_Stamps/year/2001At Colnect we list them as illegal stamps ie produced and marketed by a producer without authorization of the country inscibed on them. Unfortunately a huge blight on the hobby over the last two decades, Colnect records tens of thousands of them |
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JeffS
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What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
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Post by JeffS on Jan 22, 2023 14:45:45 GMT
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philatelia
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Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
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Post by philatelia on Jan 22, 2023 14:51:55 GMT
To answer your question, seegod1, In my own inventory, I’d add them in with any Etiquette stickers, Cinderellas, fantasy issues etc that I might have acquired. But I wouldn’t normally inventory all those odds and ends. I might do a count for everything in that category such as “25 odds and ends items all not valid postage.” To be honest, I’m glad that many catalog editors omit these questionable issues and I wish they would add more to the rejected list. Once a stamp is given a major catalog number, collectors who seek completion would feel that they MUST add the scurrilous items. IMHO if an issue was never actually issued in said country, sold in many post offices and applied to letters or packages and USED as postage then it’s not a valid issue. If I published a catalog, all of those stamps would be in a separate catalog section labeled as non postal issues. |
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(therefore I don't use 'Steiner' pages as they separate the Semi-postal and Air-mail stamps from the rest) 
