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Post by adamgarfinkle on Feb 3, 2022 20:31:38 GMT
Many years ago I bought an auction lot hoping to get some stamps from what became the UAE in 1971--in other words, from the seven emirates that used to compose briefly the Trucial States....before Britain withdrew "east of Suez" and foisted collective independence on these places without their ever having asked for it. Alas, about half the lot consisted of stuff Scott doesn't list--and justifiably so for the most part, because this "dunes" material created post-1971 was not issued to actually carry mail, it seems, but to appeal mainly to topical collectors in Europe and North America. Brief related anecdote: I once went to a stamp store in Dubai owned by a Pakistani (not surprisingly), back in around 2008 I think it was, and even he was scornful of this material when I asked about it. He didn't sell it and he didn't want it.
While Scott doesn't list most of this stuff, I'm told that Michel does (don't know about Yvert), and that there is therefore more of a market for this material in Germany and Western Europe than there is here in the US.
Assuming that is more or less accurate information, does anyone have POC information for a dealer or a collector, whether in Europe or not, who desires this material? I'd be pleased to part with it for cheap.....all it does it occupy space, as far as I'm concerned. Of course I'm also interested in information about who produced and marketed this material, if anyone has some; my guess is that Emiratis were not alone in cooking this scheme up, and my further guess is that the story would be of some amusement value. Many thanks in advance.
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ameis33
Member
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 546
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
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Post by ameis33 on Feb 3, 2022 21:34:22 GMT
The "Trucial states"... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunes_(stamps)A friend of mine collects them. His collection is stocked in two or three big binders, with self made pages. I've never seen something similar. I don't know if complete or not, but it's quite difficult that someone have the few stamps he's missing over the thousands produced... About postal usage, he has some letters sent by the producers franked just with those stamps. Letters containing price lists, commercial proposals (all of course related to their stamps). It's nice to see such a collection, but i don't feel to begin collecting them...
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angore
Member
Posts: 5,709
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Feb 3, 2022 22:03:43 GMT
I collect many of them and use Michel since they list most.
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dorincard
Member
Posts: 1,627
What I collect: My focus is on Wild Mammals on maximum cards. Occasionally, I get or create maximum cards with other animals, or any other topic.
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Post by dorincard on Feb 5, 2022 0:09:11 GMT
Many such stamps had some educational value for the young collectors. "I'm speaking for a friend".
Whetting the appetite for general culture, before the Internet Age.
Many of them are miniature artwork. Beautiful graphic design, commissioned outside the Trucial States.
People, please don't hate them blindly! Be reasonable, and look beyond the commercial intent of them.
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Post by greaden on Feb 5, 2022 0:37:51 GMT
People collect kitsch for its 'camp' value, and likewise the dunes will find their place in future collections.
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stanley64
Member
Posts: 1,992
What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
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Post by stanley64 on Feb 5, 2022 11:06:24 GMT
Yup! There are some great stamps available from the region and for the thematic collector, some of these issues may depict that rare image of a specific mushroom type, Royal figures ( Habsburg Dunes) or even penguin species ;-) Review your topic's checklist, but I would encourage individuals to add items with caution, the commercial interest or value often is limited and you may just find your heirs selling them for 10¢ stamp at the end of the drive... Happy collecting!!
P.S. A great collection is a great collection and I would welcome the opportunity to see a page or two, if not all three binders of Roberto's ( ameis33 ) friend material.
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angore
Member
Posts: 5,709
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Feb 5, 2022 11:14:12 GMT
One can find them on ebay and other places but not at giveaway prices but not sure how many are selling.
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angore
Member
Posts: 5,709
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Feb 6, 2022 11:11:35 GMT
Steiner has some pages for these issues. The issues were usually jumbo size so certain designs (like paintings) really showed off the design.
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serphil
**Member**
Posts: 10
What I collect: Worldwide until 1975, something until 2000.
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Post by serphil on Feb 7, 2022 18:46:37 GMT
Hallo ! I'm the "misterious friend" of ameis33 I don't wish he was too generous to me, so let me explain how I found myself dealing with these stamps relegated for decades to the dark corner between cinderellas and fantasy stamps. I collect all over the world and the time limit I set myself up to about 6 years ago was the end of the colonial period, a fairly vague definition as it covers at least a period of 15 years with various aspects to consider. For the area we're talking about things were extremely simple to define (less simple to collect, but that's a different problem). Tired of explaining why I followed Tanganyika until 1961 but Rhodesia until 1965, I decided to draw a line on the year 1975. Everything easier but ... without thinking about it I had inserted into my borders the beginning of the period in which they appear issues "for the benefit of the national cash" What to do? Choices are choices and so I started to deepen the superficial information about the area, its history and its philately. Until 1968/69 nothing really particular but in the following years a real explosion of emissions with endless disputes and discussions. Interesting terrain for a curious philatelist. So I started to take back those objects, acquiring them when I had the opportunity to the value that in my opinion they had (and have), close to zero (I must specify that I collect used, which in these cases almost automatically means CTO). Basically it was like facing a puzzle of 5/6000 pieces without knowing the design but with an idea of the theme. This was the departure, which led me in a relatively short time to occupy more space in the bookstore than, for example, for East Germany. Currently a dozen large binders as well as various containers (the size of the objects sometimes they are not exactly small). But this, as mentioned, was the beginning, for the sequel ... give me some time Sergio
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serphil
**Member**
Posts: 10
What I collect: Worldwide until 1975, something until 2000.
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Post by serphil on Feb 8, 2022 17:51:09 GMT
Second half Facing the 1971-73 period, the most controversial one, some aspects are evident: the differences in the number of issues from the various emirates, the repetitiveness of the same and the multiplication of "accessory elements" such as mini-sheets. To a great extent they can be considered expected, given the confusion and forcing of the contracts, but when the number of pieces considered increases it becomes evident that some of these cannot be contemporary. Putting a bit of curiosity and a dose of experience into the service of these battered stamps, we first come to understand that (at least for Ajman and Umm al Qiwain) there are probably two main moments in the early 70s, which I call "first release" and "massive press", followed by at least two further waves, around the 90s and after 2005. Even today, huge quantities of this material are placed on the market and through various passages they arrive above all in the collections of those who love themes. How to call them? Illegal reprints? Fake of stamps that were already dubious at the outset? We could play on the definitions but the substance is the same. On the one hand it is necessary to think that the fake does not require high values to be productive, on the other hand that there are spaces to refine one's experience at minimal cost. There are many themes on the pitch, now I'd like to hear your voices.
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,551
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Feb 8, 2022 19:25:36 GMT
Hi serphil, it is a brave collector who sets out in the Floral, colourful, “dunes” knowing where he is travelling. Many older collectors ( and I suppose that means me) frown upon these issues…… and sadly we are guilty of snobbery towards the collectors of these. Of course in the past 30-40 years there were collectors who bought these in good faith trusting they all had postal purpose and more importantly postal usage. When it came to selling or passing on their collection they found the market had vanished “Poof! “ like a tale from Arabian nights. Other countries with similar, enormous colourful , outpourings suffer the same fate and snobbish disdain from those who consider themselves “serious collectors”, Liberia ,Sierra Leone, Tuvalu, Dominica, Equatorial Guinea, Anguilla, Barbuda etc etc . Now you actually sound like a person who knows exactly what you are looking at, you are acquiring and collecting for the pure fun and enjoyment without paying a huge amount of money. As long as you can acquire material that you like without huge expenditure you are to be congratulated.
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serphil
**Member**
Posts: 10
What I collect: Worldwide until 1975, something until 2000.
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Post by serphil on Feb 8, 2022 20:11:49 GMT
Hi serphil , it is a brave collector who sets out in the Floral, colourful, “dunes” knowing where he is travelling. Many older collectors ( and I suppose that means me) frown upon these issues…… and sadly we are guilty of snobbery towards the collectors of these. Of course in the past 30-40 years there were collectors who bought these in good faith trusting they all had postal purpose and more importantly postal usage. When it came to selling or passing on their collection they found the market had vanished “Poof! “ like a tale from Arabian nights. Other countries with similar, enormous colourful , outpourings suffer the same fate and snobbish disdain from those who consider themselves “serious collectors”, Liberia ,Sierra Leone, Tuvalu, Dominica, Equatorial Guinea, Anguilla, Barbuda etc etc . Now you actually sound like a person who knows exactly what you are looking at, you are acquiring and collecting for the pure fun and enjoyment without paying a huge amount of money. As long as you can acquire material that you like without huge expenditure you are to be congratulated. Hi vikingeckYou touched several important aspects. Like many people I have known these colorful pieces of paper when I was a boy, I remember that I always found 4 or 5 pieces when I went to buy a new binder. Then the curiosity was to discover the place of origin (in the atlases, at best, you found the mysterious "Trucial States" and "internet" meant what you found in the public library). The passion for history and geography certainly helped to get me a fairly clear idea right away. Of course, there has always been a kind of snobbery on the part of the "serious" collector and even today I often hear myself defined as "that of the sheets" (only to be silent when perhaps we go talking about, i.e., the plating of Victorian series ). I believe I have always kept an open attitude considering them for what they were: a tool for acquiring valuable foreign currency, used extensively by an infinite number of countries that came out of the colonial period with the resources plundered and the coffers empty. In this they are certainly no different from the productions of other well-known and collected countries. I believe that an important obstacle for many is the printed cancellation, but after all, what real difference is there with the matrix cancellations of so many other nations? Another objection consists in the illustrated themes, certainly not very relevant to the places of origin, but again I could say "how would you define those who try to produce something to sell and do not care what the tastes of their customers are?". The clientele was of course the European and North American market and therefore ... Many consider these issues as the only production of that area, without considering that instead there are "real" series and issues that can easily compete in rarity with many important pieces in our collections. In short, it is always necessary to know what we are talking about. The thing that I struggle to understand (but here we enter the field of variety hunters, real or presumed) is the people who get to spend even $ 20/30 for material that I see selling at $ 2 for 50 pieces. I understand desire but when it happens I find myself shaking my head.
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,551
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Feb 8, 2022 20:20:49 GMT
Another objection consists in the illustrated themes, certainly not very relevant to the places of origin, but again I could say "how would you define those who try to produce something to sell and do not care what the tastes of their customers are?". The clientele was of course the European and North American market and therefore ... I’m always amused when the Muslim “dunes” issue Christmas stamps, and Christian religious paintings …I guess that is aiming at the western collector market.
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angore
Member
Posts: 5,709
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Feb 9, 2022 11:02:59 GMT
I am sure it was because of the large Christian population in the region (grin) but could see cases where areas once controlled by Western countries like Britain. But then the areas also must have had an interest in winter skiing too given all the Winter Olympics stamps.
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renden
Member
Posts: 9,169
What I collect: Canada-USA-France-Lithuania-Austria--Germany-Mauritius-French Colonies in Africa
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Post by renden on Feb 9, 2022 17:22:49 GMT
I was surprised that members were collecting (or had) stamps from the "dunes" - I landed (from a neighbour) a good amount on CATS, so they went into my Cat collection and found more this morning in a stock book with an intro I put together.......will just show you a scan with multiple "dunes" stamps, some cancelled (CTO), some not - mostly blocks and sheets on Sapporo and Munich Olympics - I would nevr kno what to do with these René They could bring "joy" to my friend Stan in Sacramento stainlessb !!!! and he would not need to buy all these "French" catalogs !
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,927
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Feb 9, 2022 17:56:00 GMT
They could bring "joy" to my friend Stan in Sacramento stainlessb !!!! and he would not need to buy all these "French" catalogs ! now what's the fun in that?
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renden
Member
Posts: 9,169
What I collect: Canada-USA-France-Lithuania-Austria--Germany-Mauritius-French Colonies in Africa
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Post by renden on Feb 9, 2022 19:37:29 GMT
They could bring "joy" to my friend Stan in Sacramento stainlessb !!!! and he would not need to buy all these "French" catalogs ! now what's the fun in that? Stan you have the right opinion as they are (dunes) really not fun - a mockery of Philatelists but I do have some (which I did not buy) and stuck with them - If any member does collect them.......I have a bunch of "dunes" cats, stamps (or cinderellas ??) etc and I do respect the right to choose what you like....... But looking at the stamps I scanned could have brought you the "joy" I was referring to - maybe my english words were or are not precise LOL !! PM me (not you Stan) if you show interest and agree to pay the Postage - René
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JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,847
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
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Post by JeffS on Feb 9, 2022 20:34:10 GMT
renden my rule of thumb to establish legitimacy of stamp like pieces of paper is, can they be found postally used on a cover. I realize that my thumb may well be narrower than most
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Post by adamgarfinkle on Feb 10, 2022 15:49:16 GMT
Well, this is all great fun to read. Thanks. I'm glad now more than before that I initiated the discussion.
What I don't see, yet, is any practical help in my getting this material into the hands of those who want it, or want some of it. I'm not interested in money; maybe just an old-fashioned exchange of CV using Michel as a guide for the Dunes. Anyone have a practical suggestion, please?
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stanley64
Member
Posts: 1,992
What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
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Post by stanley64 on Feb 10, 2022 17:01:04 GMT
adamgarfinkle , I too have enjoyed the discussion and reading the various thoughts on the topic :-) Although I have no insights for any collectors or dealers that might want the material in its entirety, I will happily 'cherry pick' those issues that depict penguins for my own collection and an article I am currently writing, "Penguin Dunes & Their Postage Stamps".
Send me a private message or an email and we can certainly discuss further... Happy collecting!
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tomiseksj
Moderator
Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,387
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Feb 10, 2022 17:02:10 GMT
...Anyone have a practical suggestion, please? Attain the 14 Day/50 post membership milestone and you'll be able to solicit trades or post items for sale in the Members Buy, Sell and Trade category. Or, should you so choose, offer items in one or more giveaways.
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serphil
**Member**
Posts: 10
What I collect: Worldwide until 1975, something until 2000.
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Post by serphil on Feb 10, 2022 19:26:16 GMT
Well, different reactions and I could say all quite predictable. I will try to propose some reflections and, later, to answer some questions that have arisen. First of all: what do you mean by "dunes"? I have the idea that, some more and some less, everyone means by this definition the entire production of the "emirates" (let's call them that). This is nonsense. We can use that term (perhaps even in a derogatory way) only for a certain number of issues between 1971 and 1973. Before those dates there is no reason to do so. They were countries fully entitled to issue postal values. You may not like the subjects, you may not like the quantities, but they are in effect stamps. Has anyone ever bothered to question the use of overprinted British postage stamps in the pre-1963 period? Has anyone ever objected to the fact that they were senseless productions because "there were only camels" over there? I do not think. Has anyone contested the UAE emissions or their legitimacy? I do not think. Has anyone ever complained that some British colony, little more than a rock in the ocean, has issued (via the London GPO) series after series up to the pound? No, on the contrary, everyone to collect them, beautiful and MNH, paying nice pennies. Of course, other graphics, other appeal, but the substance does not change. I think a moment of reflection is necessary if you do not want to fall into banality.
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renden
Member
Posts: 9,169
What I collect: Canada-USA-France-Lithuania-Austria--Germany-Mauritius-French Colonies in Africa
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Post by renden on Feb 10, 2022 19:33:40 GMT
serphil Appreciate your long posts (6) but could you summarize your thoughts, please. Thanks René Canada BTW: Dunes in philately refers to the many editions of stamps produced in the Trucial States ( today the United Arab Emirates or UAE). The stamps, printed in great profusion in the 1960s and early 1970s, are mostly near-worthless today. (ref: WIk) They are worthless to me but I still have them never paid a cent (penny) for them.......
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serphil
**Member**
Posts: 10
What I collect: Worldwide until 1975, something until 2000.
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Post by serphil on Feb 10, 2022 20:06:06 GMT
Second point. It has been said (and I agree) that we can consider them stamps if we see them traveled on envelopes. Good. But how many of those who say it have spent more than 3 minutes looking for them? The envelopes exist, even for the strangest or "absurd" issues such as those in gold foil (or any other metal that is). There are certainly, and are often found, envelopes sent to the publishers of the catalogs, to the philatelic magazines, to the specialized newspapers, typically containing the issue bulletins. How do you think the information got into the catalogs? There are commercial envelopes, even if with certainly less conspicuous postage, from banks, offices abroad, commercial branches, importers ... There are envelopes sent to private individuals, typically for subscriptions (yes, there was also the subscription service) and regularly traveled with regular arrival cancellation. Let's talk about the volumes of the USPS? Of course not ... But how many non-philatelic, unofficial, unprovoked envelopes have you seen from S. Helene? And how many from Tony to Andy INTO S.Helene territory? Here are in the photo a couple of envelopes sent and received in Italy to a person who had subscribed. There are several others and if necessary there is no problem posting the back. Just one example. Again I wonder if we stop long enough to look for what we comment on or if we are often prey to clichés. PS. I hope my bad translator-helped English is not too poor not to let my thoughts understand, misunderstanding is always around the corner.
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serphil
**Member**
Posts: 10
What I collect: Worldwide until 1975, something until 2000.
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Post by serphil on Feb 10, 2022 20:29:08 GMT
BTW: Dunes in philately refers to the many editions of stamps produced in the Trucial States ( today the United Arab Emirates or UAE). The stamps, printed in great profusion in the 1960s and early 1970s, are mostly near-worthless today. (ref: WIk) In simple terms? that's right: read fewer cliched wikis, use the tools available to study, use words and terms appropriately, possibly without preconceptions. Don't think that the "truth" is in the quotation columns of catalogs (or anywhere where stamps are sold). This of course if a person does not understand philately as a way to make money. Then everyone collects what he wants. BTW if by any chance you have one of these in the worthless odds and ends I would like to pay for the shipping
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renden
Member
Posts: 9,169
What I collect: Canada-USA-France-Lithuania-Austria--Germany-Mauritius-French Colonies in Africa
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Post by renden on Feb 10, 2022 20:29:34 GMT
Great posted envelopes, our Italian collaborator - Do you write a book or maybe for a newspaper (Editor ??) Interesting as I said. The "substance" of these stamps are in the "eyes of the person" !! René keep sharing, btw = acronym (I hate them) for by the way !! If you are more "objective" (less subjective and questioning our writings) you will help this Forum by presenting facts on the subject of this thread "Dunes" !! You seem not to stop (writing etc) while I write so I will give you more time to reflect and see if our members like it !!
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serphil
**Member**
Posts: 10
What I collect: Worldwide until 1975, something until 2000.
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Post by serphil on Feb 10, 2022 20:51:38 GMT
Well, this is all great fun to read. Thanks. I'm glad now more than before that I initiated the discussion. What I don't see, yet, is any practical help in my getting this material into the hands of those who want it, or want some of it. I'm not interested in money; maybe just an old-fashioned exchange of CV using Michel as a guide for the Dunes. Anyone have a practical suggestion, please? If the material consists of the usual series, such as those shown in other posts, I think they will hardly find interest and certainly not from a trader. Those who sell this material (I should say what passes for this material today) have warehouses full of it, fresh off the press. I may be interested, for the checks I am doing, in blocks with sheet edges, se-tenants of different series, some particular elements but I would not want this to violate the constraints mentioned by Tomiseksy.
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JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,847
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
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Post by JeffS on Feb 10, 2022 23:09:22 GMT
Here are some JFK frankings from my stock that saw postal use: Sorry for the size they are existing scans.
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angore
Member
Posts: 5,709
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Feb 11, 2022 11:54:01 GMT
Many of the Trucial States issued were not authorized issues of the local government but one can collect like Cinderellas. I collect ones that interest me such as space, art, local and other figures.
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salentin
Member
collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 6,557
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Post by salentin on Feb 11, 2022 12:51:09 GMT
My only Ajman letter is a stampless one.
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