Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Feb 22, 2022 12:12:52 GMT
Stamps with Fugitive Inks
IntroductionI should begin by saying that this is not an original idea, but as near as I can tell from internet searches, it seems that no such source currently exists, either as a published book or an online database. I am happy to be corrected on this statement if anyone does know of a source. This is a project that I have long wanted to start. For me, it began after I joined TSF, and I started to learn from other members that stamp catalogues, while very useful and important to our hobby, are not always correct and do not always include all the information that one might need at a given time. It was Clive Smyth ( Anping) who introduced me to the term "fugitive ink" and who posted about the use of such inks on QV, KEVII, and KGV stamps that is not explicitly mentioned in published catalogues, at least to my knowledge. At the time (around 2017), I contacted Clive by PM on this subject, and we agreed to co-author a TSF Newsletter article on the subject, but other circumstances intervened. Clive passed away in 2018, and the article was never written. So, I would like to dedicate this effort to Clive, who inspired me to want to do more in this area. Sorry for the long delay in finally getting around to doing it, my friend. All I can say is, "Better late than never."
Purpose: the goal of this thread will be to provide a virtual catalogue of all stamps that can be identified as having fugitive inks. This is mainly intended for water-soluble inks, which pose problems for standard soaking, but other special cases will also be noted, such as early Perkins Bacon stamps that were printed using special inks to prevent removal of cancellations by treatment with benzene. Plan: this thread should be primarily used for posting concrete information on stamps that require special care in soaking or other related treatments. I will start a separate thread with name "Discussion" in the title, which should be used for members to make comments about the project, suggest possible areas to be included, how the list should be organized, etc. Hopefully, this will work. It will, of course, always be possible to move posts between the threads, and I will make every effort to keep them organized. Format: I am interested to hear ideas on this, but I would like to start with one that I have in mind on which I would also like to receive feedback. I was thinking to set up a table that would list stamps with fugitive inks by country, and then associating catalogue numbers from multiple publishers (SG, Michel, Scott, Y&T, and others). In the context of relating various catalogue numbers to given stamp, perhaps Colnect might be helpful. One issue with using a table is that while tables are possible on TSF, I have found them to be a bit difficult to use. And at least in my experience, it does not seem possible to copy and paste from MS Excel or MS Word into a TSF post, without losing all the formatting. Any digital technology experts out there who can suggest ways to do this are welcome to offer advice. One thing I would like to ensure is that the information is entered into TSF as text, so that it is searchable. I think this is important for an online resource. But I would also like to have the information in an MS Word or Excel file that can also be modified offline.
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 20, 2022 8:28:09 GMT
Fugitive Inks
Lexicon of TermsWhat are " fugitive inks"? Aniline ink: A fast-drying printing ink that is a solution of a coal-tar dye in an organic solvent or a solution of a pigment in an organic solvent or water, that was designed to "bleed" when exposed to solvents to prevent re-use of a stamp. Chalky or chalk-surfaced paper: A philatelic term for a type of paper coated with a chalky solution for security purposes. The postmark cannot be removed without damaging the surface of the stamp, thus discouraging erasure of cancellations and fraudulent reuse of stamps. The paper was first coated with a chalk-like powder, and the ink for the stamp was then impressed upon the paper. Collectors are cautioned not to attempt to remove a stamp printed on chalky paper from an envelope or paper backer by soaking it in liquid, as this may destroy the stamp's design. Doubly fugitive ink: An ink that is fugitive both when it comes in contact with water and with at least one other solvent. Singly fugitive ink: When ink remains unaffected by water, an aqueous solvent, but runs when exposed to mineral solvents like turpentine, it is said to be "singly fugitive". Surface-printed: Printing method for stamps that first started to replace line engraving around 1855 and in some cases, can be associated with fugitive inks. There is much more to tell about this technique unrelated to fugitive inks, but that will be considered as outside the scope of this thread. Other definitions needed? Please make a post and suggest any you can think of.
ReferencesThe above definitions have been cobbled together by me from an assortment of online sources, including:
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 20, 2022 8:55:20 GMT
Stamps with Fugitive Inks
Preliminary ListBelow are some stamps printed with fugitive inks that I either know through personal experience, have found noted on TSF, have found listed in a published catalogue, or have found through an online source. This list is in no particular order. As stated earlier, my idea is to create a list in the form of a table that will show all of these stamps. What all of the table headings should be and how the list should be organized is open to discussion. I was thinking alphabetical by country with a short description and image, followed by some columns with catalogue numbers and any notes that would apply to a particular stamp or series of stamps accordingly.
From DK : New Zealand 2d Rose of the First Sideface set of 1875 From rod222 : Netherlands Indies early stamps; also noted single and double fugitive inks with correct definitions From Xavier ( hrdoktorx ): Prussia Mi20-21, with added notes from Nelson; France Sc1590 From Clive ( clivel ): Rhodesia, KGV Admiral issues as noted below From René ( renden): Newfoundland varieties as shown below Stamps either singly or doubly fugitive from my experience or online sources: - Belgium, early issues noting aniline inks
- COGH, Triangles SG1-SG4 on blued paper: singly fugitive to organic solvents like benzene (but not to water)
- France, Sc1590, Mi2091, AFA #2136, Ceres #1980, issued in 1978; fugitive to water
- Great Britain, QV Jubilee issues in green and purple are double fugitive
- Hong Kong, QV 30-cent green indicated in Scott Catalogue
- Hong Kong, KEVII & KGV two-color definitives, mainly portrait vignette is fugitive
- Malaysian States, elephant high-denomination issues are double fugitive
- Netherlands Indies listed in Scott Catalogue
- Newfoundland, Walsh 253a-b, 450th Anniv. John Cabot Issue, printed in aniline ink
- New Zealand, 1d Universal printed in aniline ink
- Prussia, Mi20-21 printed on gelatin-coated paper and fugitive to water
- Rhodesia, British South Africa Company, King George V Admiral Issue, 1-Shilling; blue-color frame fugitive to water
- Straits Settlements listed as Surface-Printed Paper
- US, Scott Design A88 2c Red/Carmine Washington shows bleeding (other confirming source would be good)
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jan 20, 2023 17:19:40 GMT
As the recent discussion in the thread on Mildew has sparked some interest both in the use of hydrogen peroxide and about stamps with fugitive inks, I think it is finally time for me to unveil this thread that I started working on back in Feb-2022. It has been under construction on a non-public board awaiting its chance to be shared with the membership, and I figure, why not today?
Please have a look at what I have created so far and let me have your feedback, as I am open to ideas and info to make it a real resource not only for TSF members, but for all collectors.
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REL1948
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Post by REL1948 on Mar 10, 2023 16:40:21 GMT
Hello Beryllium Guy,
I can't believe I missed this thread??? Will contribute soon.
Rob
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 10, 2023 17:08:37 GMT
After review the thread Beryllium Guy linked to above, let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment! It would seem that the penny reds are Singly fugitive ink: When ink remains unaffected by water, an aqueous solvent, but runs when exposed to mineral solvents like turpentine, it is said to be "singly fugitive".
"Aqueous solution" by definition would be any water based solution. (Hydrogen Peroxide) "Mineral spirits" by definition is "a volatile, colorless liquid distilled from petroleum, used as a paint thinner and solvent. North American "mineral spirits is a mixture of light hydrocarbons"inorganic versus organic.... however what about organic compounds that are water soluble, or miscible in water? (i.e., detergents) In these cases, the first definition would have ... exceptions. I am also thinking of Pancreatin which is a combination of pancreatic enzymes, which has been suggested as a solution to the stubborn gums on some of the early issues (Austria and GB). My experience with Pancreatin thus far has not been overwhelming. I found one mention of one of the enzymes performing better in a saline solution, and yet another discusses using the enzymes in a bicarbonate solution (neither of these are specifically directed towards philatelic uses). I have also tried alcohol to remove stubborn gums (which are often accompanied bya tight coiling of the wet stamp) It didn not seem to imact the ink... but it also did little to help withthe gum issue. Has anyone in recent time used benzene or turpentine, acetone, etc on a stamp to show exactly the impact? Many of us have read or been told that it does affect the inks, but do we have any eye-witnesses? |
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 10, 2023 17:09:45 GMT
Chris, perhaps the two threads should be combined?
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 10, 2023 17:17:22 GMT
Thanks for your posts, Stan ( stainlessb ). I have moved your post commenting about the terms in this thread to this thread, where I think it fits best. My opinion is the subject of bluing of the paper and how it came about is distinct and separate from the topic of fugitive inks. When I posted this thread back in December-January, I didn't get a single comment from anyone, so perhaps it was poor timing on my part. I am glad to see now that someone is interested in it! Anyway, I hope you don't mind that I moved your post here, and I will respond to it fully. Thanks for your understanding. |
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 10, 2023 17:49:33 GMT
Thanks for your meaty post, Stan ( stainlessb ). I am glad to see some engagement on this topic, as I was quite surprised at the lack of comments when I posted this thread a couple of months ago. I thought that surely this would be a topic for discussion. Perhaps now it will get some traction. I will start by saying that I understand about the pancreatin and its use for dissolving stubborn residual gum on early Austrian stamps, but I don't think that this is directly related to fugitive inks, so I will not comment further here. On top of that, all I know about it is what I have read that was originally posted by Ryan and now by you, so I wouldn't be able to add anything useful anyway. OK, so back to the subject at hand, fugitive inks! I have long been interested in this, going back to my own early experiences in ruining some stamps by soaking them in water and then watching the designs disappear. I have previously posted an image or two, and I will add those again here at some point. I need to take care of some work tasks now, so I am going to abbreviate this until later, but a couple of quick comments: Benzene is one of the chemicals that has traditionally been used as watermark detection fluid, to my understanding, so I would have thought that it shouldn't really affect the ink, but perhaps someone else may be able to comment. Jim ( jkjblue ) is knowledgeable about chemistry, so perhaps he can add to this. The other quick question is that I just noticed from looking at the definitions of singly and doubly fugitive that a stamp which is only fugitive to water doesn't seem to fit either definition! I am wondering if the definition of singly fugitive needs to be modified to account for that. Gotta go for now. More later.  |
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clivel
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What I collect: Basutoland, Bechuanaland, Rhodesias, South Africa, Swaziland, Israel to 1980, Ireland predecimal, Palestine Mandate
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Post by clivel on Mar 10, 2023 23:53:18 GMT
 --- Unfortunately, my introduction to fugitive inks came early in my collecting days, and was at the time for me a fairly expensive lesson.
I discovered for myself that some of the Rhodesia, British South Africa Company, Admirals (1913 -1924), and in particular the 1/- values are fugitive.
Other than a brief comment in "Rhodesia, a Postal History" by R.C Smith where he writes with reference to this series of stamps that "experiments were being made with a view to obtaining more satisfactory fugitive inks in certain colours" I have not seen any reference in any of the catalogues to these being fugitive.
The two stamps in the image above are the two that I managed to pluck out of the soak before they were completely ruined, unlike their four less fortunate companions, but even then, they are now essentially worthless.
Clive |
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Post by jkjblue on Mar 12, 2023 20:34:00 GMT
I remember as a kid using Benzine to check for watermarks. Not a good idea, as the Benzine fumes are something one does not want to inhale over a period of time. I am not aware that Benzine is a fugitive problems for inks. Is anyone else? |
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Apr 4, 2023 16:51:44 GMT
Received this week, Prussian stamp MiNr. 21, printed on onion paper, and with a water-soluble ink, so needing special care in handling:  Quoting in full to move copy to thread on Fugitive Inks. |
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Apr 4, 2023 16:52:41 GMT
Received this week, Prussian stamp MiNr. 21, printed on onion paper, and with a water-soluble ink, so needing special care in handling: That is an unusually good sample!! The 2 issues Mi 20 & 21 were a trial safety measure printing to prevent re-use They were printed on what is called Goldbeaters paper It was made transparent with a collodion gelatin layer. The stamp design was printed in negative on the back of the paper and the gum was applied over the design. When the stamp was applied to the letter the moisture reacted with the collodion and the design appeared more distinctly through the paper. Trying to soak the stamp off does not produce the desired results - as noted I have a nice example of the Mi 21 but the 10gr Mi 20 cousin is very difficult to find in any reasonable condition other than on covers. Quoting in full to move copy of post to thread on Fugitive Inks. |
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Apr 4, 2023 17:01:55 GMT
Bumping this thread to thank Xavier ( hrdoktorx) for his earlier post of an example of a stamp with water-soluble ink from Prussia, which I had either not known about or forgotten if I had previously noted it. These two listings are now added the compilation list near the top of this thread. If anyone else is aware of specific stamps that fugitive to soaking, whether in water or in other chemicals, please make a post here, and I will add them to the list. Thanks, all! |
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hrdoktorx
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What I collect: France (and French territories), Africa, Canada, USA, Germany, Guatemala, stamps about science, flags, maps, stamps on stamps...
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Post by hrdoktorx on Apr 4, 2023 17:33:02 GMT
I will always remember my first encounter with a fugitive ink stamp. I was a young philatelist (the stamp in question was issued in 1978 and I got it on a piece of mail shortly thereafter), and I did not even know fugitive inks could be a thing. So I soaked it, along with all the others I had to work on at the time, and the result is the stamp on the right. I eventually got another copy, handled more carefully, seen on the left. But I kept the damaged version because it shocked me so much to see the stamp so damaged by simple soaking!  This is France Sc#1590, MiNr. 2091, AFA #2136, Ceres #1980, issued in 1978 and part of the series showing the various regions of France. This one is dedicated to Lower Normandy, and has the silhouette of a Viking drakkar on it, as these lands were given to the Vikings to buy their peace... |
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Apr 4, 2023 18:19:17 GMT
Hi, Xavier ( hrdoktorx), and thanks for your latest post.... I am always happy to add to the list! In your post about the Prussia, Mi20-21, you mentioned "onion paper". I am aware of onion skin paper from when I was a kid, and my Dad had some in his office. It was very thin and a bit translucent. I used some of it for tracing, as it was easy to see through it. But I think it was made from actual onion skins. Former member Nelson responded to your post and mentioned "Goldbeater's paper". I looked that up, and what I found is called "Goldbeater's skin", and it is a form of thin membrane made from animal intestines, similar to vellum, but it sounds quite different from onion skin paper. It is called Goldbeater's skin because it was used in between layers of gold-metal when creating gold-leaf. When you made that comment, did you find it listed in the catalogue as onion paper, or did you just write that because it is thin and translucent in appearance? I would like to be sure to list these stamps correctly for the kind of paper used. Thanks! |
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renden
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Post by renden on Apr 4, 2023 18:25:18 GMT
In both Unitrade Canada Specialized (covers Newfoundland) 2023 and Wash 2018 Newfoundland Specialized, it is noted that the Cabot Issue 1947, Jun 24 stamp- I found that some variety had been printed with Aniline ink Unitrade mentions 100 copies reported (#270iv) This was the last Colony stamp before Newfoundland joined Canada. René A snippet taken from Walsh(# 253):  |
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Apr 4, 2023 19:35:23 GMT
take 2..... (had troubles getting images to add) I don't know if it stays viewable while editing, but if so you may not be seeing the entire post. (Typo correction- initially posted as 15 hours) In hopes of getting some lively conversation going. SG 200 GB QV Jubilee 2 d green and red- a "known" stamp with unstable/fugitive inks. Some of you may have wondered about my current avatar. It was a SG73 that spent 25 hours (1500 minutes) in 3% Hydrogen Peroxide at ambient emp. Why on earth would I do this? Wel, I'll admit is was on purpose. I didn't not expect to go 1500 minutes but after 8 hours I could still see the stamp design and it was bedtime! Unfortunately I over-wrote the 'before" scans (@beryilliumguy if you still have this please post) ..(Chris also now has the "stamp")   You can just make out the red denomination frame and some of the green masthead. Since Hydrogen Peroxide is 97% water, I wondered why didn't this fade/bleed out sooner, so having another stamp to trial, I tried filtered water at ambient temp (filtered to remove chorine) Before   and after 25 hours...   a bit lighter in both colors... but not not much bleed, and the back- much cleaner papers a bit whiter and the stain from the cancel ink (I'm guessing that's what that was) is mostly gone... So.... is it warm/hot water? is it the chlorine which is in most of our water? For those who use a small amount of detergent, is that the culprit? To put it mildly, things did not turn out as expected based on all that i had read and heard up to now... I may subject this stamp to warm water (I have no more of this to experiment with) and yes, there have been some 'controlled' experiments underway that Chris and I have been working on regarding soaking and peroxide and various stamps... more on that in time. The scanner settings are the same for all stamps shown and the settings are a saved profile. The stamps are also scanned in the same region on the flatbed. |
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hrdoktorx
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What I collect: France (and French territories), Africa, Canada, USA, Germany, Guatemala, stamps about science, flags, maps, stamps on stamps...
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Post by hrdoktorx on Apr 5, 2023 5:27:14 GMT
Hi, Xavier ( hrdoktorx ), and thanks for your latest post.... I am always happy to add to the list! In your post about the Prussia, Mi20-21, you mentioned "onion paper". I am aware of onion skin paper from when I was a kid, and my Dad had some in his office. It was very thin and a bit translucent. I used some of it for tracing, as it was easy to see through it. But I think it was made from actual onion skins. Former member Nelson responded to your post and mentioned "Goldbeater's paper". I looked that up, and what I found is called "Goldbeater's skin", and it is a form of thin membrane made from animal intestines, similar to vellum, but it sounds quite different from onion skin paper. It is called Goldbeater's skin because it was used in between layers of gold-metal when creating gold-leaf. When you made that comment, did you find it listed in the catalogue as onion paper, or did you just write that because it is thin and translucent in appearance? I would like to be sure to list these stamps correctly for the kind of paper used. Thanks! I was calling in onion paper due to its appearance. My YT catalogue actually lists it as "papier baudruche", which sounds strange to me, as "baudruche" also means a party balloon. |
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Apr 5, 2023 5:40:54 GMT
Many thanks for your reply, Xavier ( hrdoktorx)! The balloon reference is interesting, because in the online description that I found for Goldbeater's Skin, it said that the material was used for making early hot-air balloons.... so how about that!? Perhaps that's what YT is referring to, and the term has come into modern parlance to mean a party balloon. Anyway, thanks for clarifying. |
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vi
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Post by vi on Jun 7, 2024 2:52:48 GMT
yay! I finally found pictures of the stamps I ruined and threw away in March, and was able to track down the catalogue numbers. They were all in the 1880 Coat of Arms series from Chile, which made it easy to link to them all in Colnect: colnect.com/en/stamps/list/country/43-Chile/series/232128-Fiscal_Tax_Stamps_Issue_of_1878/year/n2013o2014o2015o2019o2020o2021o2022o2023o2024That link will have catalogue numbers from several catalogues for each of the 4 stamps that didn't do well (I had the brown 2, yellow 20, blue 5, and green 10 centavo stamps; no red 1 centavo). I have attached pictures of how they started out. I put all of them in the same peroxide bath, and ended with all of the blue ones looking blotchy and blackish, the yellow nearly no ink at all, and the brown just looked dirty. I don't have pictures of the aftermath.    |
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vi
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Post by vi on Jun 7, 2024 8:54:31 GMT
One more for the books! I just had help identifying a stamp that was completely blank except watermark and obliteration mark here: thestampforum.boards.net/thread/11816/plain-brown-stamp-postmark-watermark?page=1&scrollTo=195338Through identification of the watermark, obliteration mark, and perfs, Hugh and khj helped to identify my stamp as a very likely casualty of fugitive ink- most likely, a lilac/green Queen Victoria issue of 1883-1884 or Queen Victoria Jubilee issues of 1887-1892. khj stated both fit and were printed with fugitive inks. Late edit to add thanks to Vikingeck, who narrowed it down further to the 1883 2d or 2 1/2d in lilac or 6d or 9d in green. |
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vi
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Post by vi on Aug 4, 2024 23:36:12 GMT
I recieved this one already faded and can't be sure if it's a true fade or fugitive ink. Seeing as it's dated over 100 years ago, I'm not sure I want to test the good one to be sure.  |
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Aug 5, 2024 13:57:36 GMT
I don't recall these being troublesome. Michel only lists one color (the darker), although there are two paper types: regular and glazed. However I have no details on how to tell (perhaps someone knows). I have a number of these in both the darker tone and perhaps a faded version (or maybe there is color variant). I'm about to leave for the morning, but I'll test a few later today. I have not made pages for these yet so haven't put much time into them (still in the prior century), but with the duplicates I have, I'm sure a number have been soaked since I have purchased several lots with stamps all hinged to stock pages.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Aug 5, 2024 22:02:20 GMT
as no decision as been reached- here is the group that will be soaked. 10 minutes** hot tap water with a drop of clear detergent (as is my custom), a quick rinse and into the drying book- then tomorrow scan (front and back) and then a 10 minute dip in 3% H 2O 2 and a follow-up scan. The stamp with the blurred cancel was selected as it has paper/envelope remnants still attached, so that will the **test** to make sure they have soaked long enough.  they were selected more or less at random from these:  |
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Aug 5, 2024 23:09:06 GMT
no noticed color changes. The stamp with the paper on the back suffered some perf loss while removing (that may be my fault...) and another stamp has printing transference from the envelope that was hidden by a hinge.
I have gone through what references I have and have found nothing indicating any issues with the inks if soaked.
If however, these were printed with a water soluble ink, since all were used, then it would be possible that any fading had already occurred. This was the same 'understanding' with the QV Jubilee stamps, which, I think demonstrated, that previously soaked (faded) stamps could show additional decline with more soaking.
But I'm not finding anything about this particular series. It seems most of Austria's efforts to make removal of postmarks and re-use of stamps was largely with the lacquer bar issues.
Scan in the morning!
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Aug 6, 2024 14:01:41 GMT
Good morning stampers! Here's images after 10 minutes in hot water (130-140ºF) and a drop of detergent. Colors look unchanged, some flaws highlighted and I was surprised with what the back scans show. I mentioned the ink transfer on the one, but it seems they all have some blue transfer on the reverse ( and it looks as though everything is in reverse) some staining, which I will see if 10 minutes in H 2O 2 removes. but you be the judge of the color (front)   |
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Aug 6, 2024 16:38:06 GMT
regarding the Austria paper types (which it off topic for this thread...) see stampcommunity discussion here
note: in the linked to discussion they describe as regular and chalk, or chalk-glazed, or chalk glossy. I am aware of some instances printing on a 'chalky' paper, the printed ink would deteriorate from being soaked. ( Admin move this if you think it would be better in the Austria section) |
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on Aug 6, 2024 18:08:34 GMT
I think it is safe to say that these are NOT FUGITIVE INK .
Colours may fade or be altered chemically but they are not liable to bleed or vanish with normal soaking or washing. Fugitive is quite obvious leaching or running of colour. Not here.
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renden
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Post by renden on Aug 6, 2024 18:08:58 GMT
Good morning Here's images after 10 minutes in hot water (130-140ºF) and a drop of detergent. Colors look unchanged, some flaws highlighted and I was surprised with what the back scans show. I mentioned the ink transfer on the one, but it seems they all have some blue transfer on the reverse ( and it looks as though everything is in reverse) some staining, which I will see if 10 minutes in H 2O 2 removes. Stan, in a couple of words.....your conclusion......fugitive ink ? Thanks .....our Scottish member vikingeck responded/gave an opinion, while I was writing...sorryRené not to educated in fugitive ink but I do read every post !! |
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