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Post by historyphila on Jun 5, 2022 14:47:46 GMT
Friends, While trying to getting started in identifying and organising my stampless/pre-philatelic covers and entires, I encountered the following covers all with the single-circle Brünn (or Brno, in Czechia now) handstruck postmark . All of these have some official markings on their covers (e.g. EI II 1854/249 on top-right of the second cover below) and addressed to different destinations, although I can only make out that of Holleschau (or Holeslov, also in Czechia, for Cover 3). One also has a paper seal affixed, although the embossed mark is too faint! All covers also have red crayon markings which I wasn't sure about the purpose - was it weight (e.g 17L on Cover 3, can it denote 'Loth)or the usual postage tax? And finally, why none of these covers have any receiver stamps for the destination? If anyone can shed any light, that'd be great!      |
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ameis33
Member 
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 546
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
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Post by ameis33 on Jun 5, 2022 18:16:02 GMT
Hello Sumit
It could seem strange on "The Stamp forum" to speak about letter without stamps...
But on the other side they reflect the essence of stamps, the postage usage...
One of my first collecting area was the postal relationship between Poland and the rest of the world just in the prephilatelic period, better, pre UPU, as i'm dealing about international mail and the first stamps were intended just to pay internal postage.
The understanding of a prephilatelic letter require a deep knowledge of the related postal system. The postal rates, how was they related to weight-distances, the difference services available, etc.
I have a little knowledge of the russian post, and i must say i cannot be of much help in this case...
But still, that's my two pence...
Why do you speak about official letter?
I don't see any mark or any sign which makes me think about it.
The official markings that you refer have a different writing respect to the rest of the letter. They could be a postal sign but they could also have been added for any reason by the recipient. It was common, for commercial mail, by the recipient to register on the letter when the letter has been received, when it has been answered to, its protocol number, etc.
This doesn't mean they cannot be official letters, just maybe it's required some more evidence (or maybe some more understanding that at this moment i don't have).
The red marks seems to me in effect the postal rate, but also the weight could be a correct interpretation, again it's required some more understanding...
Yes, but where to find information? For the austrian empire, i believe the most of the information you could find will be in german... (Didn't i speak somewhere else about the importance of the german language?)
Let's wait other answers that could be more helpful then mine, it's always interesting to go in the details of this kind of mail.
And welcome to the forum
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Post by historyphila on Jun 5, 2022 21:07:43 GMT
Thanks, ameis33! Always great to see a response to your first post on a forum! As for the source, I had generally benefited by looking about in the internet and has worked broadly in my initial searcher - for e.g. on the postal systems in the Austrian empire, I had a look at some of the articles in the Austrian Philately group as www.austrianphilately.com/altbrief/index.htm#6 But yes, need to dig deeper, so would be great to see what others may have in mind.. Cheers, |
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kasvik
Member
Posts: 606
What I collect: Cancels mostly, especially Sweden Gävle and Lidingö, Switzerland Geneva, Germany Pforzheim
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Post by kasvik on Jun 5, 2022 21:42:22 GMT
historyphila , starting us in the deep end? Pre-philatelic grabs me; postal history in its most extreme; fluid, groping toward the procedures that would be finalized with the reforms. And as you show, it can be a pain.
I'm nothing on Austrian Empire specifics. In my limited experience, Austrian Empire posts were the most complicated and backward. Your cover looks a combination of sender marks, official stamps and processing (the red crayon), and docking by the receiver (dates received and responded?). Everything is made harder by Fraktur script. Brutal stuff. The post clerks and receiver made your job harder still by writing in abbreviations/internal code. If it was lazy me, I'd put this one on hold, while looking for more, waiting to spot a Rosetta Stone. Maybe collectors in Brno can help.
Below is something I bought a couple days ago, part of a collection to a shipping firm in Åland, then part of Russia. The seller's scan. It's later, easier to cypher; readily legible, pre-paid, clear instructions. I'm still hoping the letter explains it better.
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Post by historyphila on Jun 6, 2022 12:16:10 GMT
Thanks, Aaron - agree to that - way a bit too complicated it seem - shall wait  Nice cover! |
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rex
Member
Posts: 1,216 
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Post by rex on Jun 6, 2022 17:30:27 GMT
I must say that I like prefilatelics a lot, but when they are in a language other than my own they are difficult to interpret. I agree with the analysis made by Roberto ameis33 . I can only admire these beautiful missives and regret not being able to help. Let's try to tag vikingeck and salentin , maybe they can help. |
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,546
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jun 6, 2022 17:43:58 GMT
Hm, thanks rex. I had a look at these a day or two ago and much as I love pre-philately I am not terribly comfortable with European stuff ( especially old German handwriting) I am much more at home with British and commonwealth mails though I do have a certain familiarity with Scandinavia. Sorry Sumit, I really cannot make any useful contribution here. |
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator 
Posts: 5,908
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jun 6, 2022 18:55:24 GMT
Sumit ( historyphila), thanks for your post! Sorry for my slow response. This isn't at all my area, but I am very much intrigued by what you have posted. I also realize that your item is from Austria and not Germany, but I will tag the following members who often seem to know about material like this: PostmasterGScarajimwentzellanglobobRyanLet's see if any of these will elicit a response!  |
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anglobob
Member
Posts: 2,602
What I collect: France and French Colonies,French cinderellas British Commonwealth QE2
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Post by anglobob on Jun 6, 2022 22:49:56 GMT
I have to admit that I know absolutely nothing about these pre-stamped covers .I only recognise some of the place names due to my interest in postmarks and researching them online.
Anglobob
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