rod222
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Post by rod222 on Sept 18, 2013 14:39:28 GMT
Anyone have a scan? I need Carmine V Cerise, if anyone would have those two.
Thanks.
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Post by jkjblue on Sept 18, 2013 20:31:11 GMT
Rod
I will try to scan up a carmine vs cerise when I get home later tonight. ;-)
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Post by jkjblue on Sept 18, 2013 23:33:30 GMT
 According to Scott, the colors respectively from left to right are: Cerise, Carmine, Cerise, Carmine, Cerise Rod- Hope this helps.  |
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Post by stoltzpup on Sept 18, 2013 23:41:53 GMT
It might be possible to create an entire Scott color chart. Is there one online already? Even if there is, online color has improved sufficiently that a new chart using actual stamps would be useful. Given the fact that color is a continuous variable and Scott uses discrete names for colors, the stamps on such a chart would of necessity have quite a lot of variance. Moreover, some colors fade markedly, e.g., orange.
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rod222
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Posts: 11,047
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Sept 19, 2013 0:07:53 GMT
Thanks jkj, nice work. I am chasing a MUH Romania C32a Cerise Ebay items look to me like just a "heavily inked" carmine. I am not seeing "neon pink" as your examples. At $15 would like to make sure, I'll tread water.  |
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Post by jkjblue on Sept 19, 2013 0:20:17 GMT
That would be a project!
I would think scanning stamps in similar gross large color groupings- red for example- with rose carmine, deep rose, etc etc within the group.
Still, it would only be somewhat helpful, with all the variables ( I can think of about 20!) that could affect the color.
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Post by jkjblue on Sept 19, 2013 0:23:22 GMT
Rod- definitely does not look cerise to me. ;-)
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rod222
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Posts: 11,047
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Sept 19, 2013 0:38:54 GMT
The more common issue (UN overprinted is the cerise) which should make for easy comparison. I just lost out on a lot with some cinderellas I wanted ($30) there appears a "cerise" unoverprinted example.......... it has that more pinky look about it.  |
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Post by stoltzpup on Sept 19, 2013 1:25:16 GMT
That would be a project! I would think scanning stamps in similar gross large color groupings- red for example- with rose carmine, deep rose, etc etc within the group. Still, it would only be somewhat helpful, with all the variables ( I can think of about 20!) that could affect the color. And don't forget lake, and carmine lake. |
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Post by jkjblue on Sept 19, 2013 4:31:37 GMT
And pigeon blood pink!  |
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I.L.S.
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Post by I.L.S. on Sept 19, 2013 6:52:11 GMT
You know I have the Scott, Stanley Gibbons and a classic Wonder color gauge and none of them are very good. I been following the 3 cent 1861-3 series (scott #65) rather closely and even the pro's have difficulty. Here is a good page for study. www.3cent1861.com/ |
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Jerry B
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Post by Jerry B on Sept 19, 2013 7:09:35 GMT
Hi
A long very long time ago I read of someone who created a great "Scott" color chart. If I remember correctly, the individual first mounted stamps of definitely known color on a small card, one color and/or shade per card. The person then punched a hole through the stamp and card. To match a color he just put an appropriate card hole over the stamp thereby matching colors.
There is a drawback to using stamps for color match. If the stamp is faded then the color would not be correct.
I seem to remember that someone does make a color chart similar to the above but with printed colors and not actual stamps.
Jerry B
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Ryan
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Calgary, Alberta, Canada
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What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Sept 19, 2013 7:21:05 GMT
I seem to remember that someone does make a color chart similar to the above but with printed colors and not actual stamps. Michel's colour guide has solid blocks of colour with a hole in the middle, maybe that's the one you're thinking of. Ryan |
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rod222
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Posts: 11,047
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Sept 19, 2013 7:58:20 GMT
Nitrolures posted this chart "wonder color chart" cerise is aboard. not sure if wonder is connected toScott  |
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rod222
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Posts: 11,047
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Sept 19, 2013 8:06:58 GMT
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I.L.S.
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I am in Clearfield, Pa. I love US Classic covers!
Posts: 2,113
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Post by I.L.S. on Sept 19, 2013 9:12:09 GMT
I can't scan the Stanley Gibbons Cerise because of the white plastic bolt that holds it together but they have it listed under the purple shades. It's 3/4 the way through it and is listed right after Bright Magenta, and right before Brown Lilac. I hope this helps somewhat. I'll have to take a snapshot of it with my camera and post it here in a little bit. Stanley Gibbons color chips: 
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Londonbus1
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Cinderella Stamp Club Member 3059
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What I collect: Wonderland; 1912 Jubilee International Stamp Exhibition, London ('Ideal' Stamp, ephemera); French Cinderellas with an emphasis on Poster Stamps; Israel and Palestine Cinderellas ; Jewish National Fund Stamps, Labels and Tags; London 2010, A Festival of Stamps (anything); South Africa 1937 Coronation issue of KGVI, singles or bi-lingual pairs.
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Post by Londonbus1 on Sept 19, 2013 9:50:36 GMT
I can't scan the Stanley Gibbons Cerise because of the white plastic bolt that holds it together but they have it listed under the purple shades. It's 3/4 the way through it and is listed right after Bright Magenta, and right before Brown Lilac. I hope this helps somewhat. I'll have to take a snapshot of it with my camera and post it here in a little bit. Stanley Gibbons color chips:  To Everyone,   Please don't forget that what passes for one colour in the Scott catalogue does not pass for that colour in Gibbons [and others]. In other words, countries do NOT agree on colour names so please do not take anything colourwise for granted. So while the Gibbons colour Key shown by I.L.S. [above], excellent though it is, will not always correspond with other colour keys [Scott, Gibbons 'Cinderella' version etc]. Just check any number of stamps and you will see many 'discrepancies' !!  Londonbus1 |
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Londonbus1
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Cinderella Stamp Club Member 3059
Posts: 5,064
What I collect: Wonderland; 1912 Jubilee International Stamp Exhibition, London ('Ideal' Stamp, ephemera); French Cinderellas with an emphasis on Poster Stamps; Israel and Palestine Cinderellas ; Jewish National Fund Stamps, Labels and Tags; London 2010, A Festival of Stamps (anything); South Africa 1937 Coronation issue of KGVI, singles or bi-lingual pairs.
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Post by Londonbus1 on Sept 19, 2013 9:57:27 GMT
According to Scott, the colors respectively from left to right are: Cerise, Carmine, Cerise, Carmine, Cerise Rod- Hope this helps. Just to underline my point in a previous post, the Gibbons colours for the stamps shown by jkj are: Mauve, red, Mauve, Red, Mauve. Now check your colour charts !! |
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Londonbus1
Moderator
Cinderella Stamp Club Member 3059
Posts: 5,064
What I collect: Wonderland; 1912 Jubilee International Stamp Exhibition, London ('Ideal' Stamp, ephemera); French Cinderellas with an emphasis on Poster Stamps; Israel and Palestine Cinderellas ; Jewish National Fund Stamps, Labels and Tags; London 2010, A Festival of Stamps (anything); South Africa 1937 Coronation issue of KGVI, singles or bi-lingual pairs.
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Post by Londonbus1 on Sept 19, 2013 9:59:52 GMT
Just to add to the confusion, I see two different shades for the USA stamps and 3 different shades for the French. But that is on MY computer screen, not yours !! Londonbus1 |
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I.L.S.
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I am in Clearfield, Pa. I love US Classic covers!
Posts: 2,113
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Post by I.L.S. on Sept 19, 2013 10:41:41 GMT
Londonbus I am very well aware of that. That's precisely why I showed it. I had to dig that old thing out as it does me no good whatsoever as I'm an American classic collector and as your fully aware nothing is set in stone when the classics are involved! lol
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Post by stoltzpup on Sept 19, 2013 12:13:43 GMT
Since 1) color is a continuous and not a discrete variable to start with, and since 2) a stamp's shade changes when too much or too little ink is applied in the printing, and since 3) fading and oxidation further modifies shades in older stamps, and since 4) soaking stamps in water often changes their color, the names chosen for stamps' colors in the catalogs are bound to be less than precise. Moreover, the color name probably was chosen by whim. I once knew a highly paid executive for Ford Motor Company whose sole job was to come up with names for the colors of new cars. The catalog makers likely had similar employees. Nice work if you can get it.
So, what to do? The shade studies that compare the variations of a single issue help describe color vocabulary. Similar studies could be developed show the variability of named catalog colors from stamp to stamp, as Jim did in his comparison of cerise and carmine. A full page of "pale gray" or "violet brown" stamps from different countries and different times would be instructive.
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Ryan
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What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Sept 19, 2013 13:16:03 GMT
Of course, you can't rule out the possibility that the colour description is simply wrong. This stamp has been listed in Unitrade as "yellow" forever (Scott 220), and my 2011 Unitrade still says it's yellow (Scott says it's yellow orange). I don't care what kind of colour chart you have, you'll never see a colour marked "yellow" that's anywhere close to this.  Ryan |
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Londonbus1
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Cinderella Stamp Club Member 3059
Posts: 5,064
What I collect: Wonderland; 1912 Jubilee International Stamp Exhibition, London ('Ideal' Stamp, ephemera); French Cinderellas with an emphasis on Poster Stamps; Israel and Palestine Cinderellas ; Jewish National Fund Stamps, Labels and Tags; London 2010, A Festival of Stamps (anything); South Africa 1937 Coronation issue of KGVI, singles or bi-lingual pairs.
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Post by Londonbus1 on Sept 19, 2013 15:36:51 GMT
Of course, you can't rule out the possibility that the colour description is simply wrong. This stamp has been listed in Unitrade as "yellow" forever (Scott 220), and my 2011 Unitrade still says it's yellow (Scott says it's yellow orange). I don't care what kind of colour chart you have, you'll never see a colour marked "yellow" that's anywhere close to this. Ryan I would say the Scott colour is about right. |
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Post by jkjblue on Sept 19, 2013 17:52:24 GMT
Stoltzpup (Bud) has it right.  A couple of comments.... • As has been stated, never take at face value a "color" from one catalogue and think it will be the same "colour"  in another catalogue. • The Scott catalogue is reasonable consistent within a country, but a "color" might be called by a different name in another country. Why? Influence by another catalogue, by philatelic experts for the country, or the whims of a (different) Scott editor. • Speaking of whims, when there was a change in Scott editors, "color" descriptions, in a number of cases, were changed |
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Post by stoltzpup on Sept 19, 2013 19:32:16 GMT
I don't care what kind of colour chart you have, you'll never see a colour marked "yellow" that's anywhere close to this. Ryan Where I grew up in West Virginia, the color orange didn't exist in people's vocabulary. What I now call orange and yellow-orange, as well as yellow-green or beige or any other variations, were simply called yellow, or "yaller," as in "yon yaller dog." This tradition is continued by the Yellow Freight Company. Check out their "yellow" insignia. [Broken image link removed] |
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Londonbus1
Moderator
Cinderella Stamp Club Member 3059
Posts: 5,064
What I collect: Wonderland; 1912 Jubilee International Stamp Exhibition, London ('Ideal' Stamp, ephemera); French Cinderellas with an emphasis on Poster Stamps; Israel and Palestine Cinderellas ; Jewish National Fund Stamps, Labels and Tags; London 2010, A Festival of Stamps (anything); South Africa 1937 Coronation issue of KGVI, singles or bi-lingual pairs.
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Post by Londonbus1 on Sept 19, 2013 19:53:54 GMT
Where I grew up in West Virginia, the color orange didn't exist in people's vocabulary. What I now call orange and yellow-orange, as well as yellow-green or beige or any other variations, were simply called yellow, or "yaller," as in "yon yaller dog." This tradition is continued by the Yellow Freight Company. Check out their "yellow" insignia. I think my quote went AWOL ! |
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Londonbus1
Moderator
Cinderella Stamp Club Member 3059
Posts: 5,064
What I collect: Wonderland; 1912 Jubilee International Stamp Exhibition, London ('Ideal' Stamp, ephemera); French Cinderellas with an emphasis on Poster Stamps; Israel and Palestine Cinderellas ; Jewish National Fund Stamps, Labels and Tags; London 2010, A Festival of Stamps (anything); South Africa 1937 Coronation issue of KGVI, singles or bi-lingual pairs.
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Post by Londonbus1 on Sept 19, 2013 20:03:37 GMT
It has nothing to do with Scott colours, but just to complicate what has already been said, in the UK Gibbons catalogues and Royal Mail do not agree on the colour of stamps !!
What is one name to RM is another to Gibbons. this occurs frequently and can be quite amusing.
And just to show that colours should be taken in a relaxed manner, there are many differences of colour between Gibbons simplified catalogues and their Specialized versions !! So even Gibbons don't agree with Gibbons...what chance do we collectors stand ??
Londonbus1........Definitely Red !! |
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Jerry B
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Post by Jerry B on Sept 20, 2013 6:17:05 GMT
Hi
The Spanish names of colors can drive you nuts. I know 2 dealers in Bogota, Colombia that have different names for the same color. My wife says that the difference is the Spanish dialect and the region they come from and both are correct.
Really want to have fun with colors? Sort the Mexican "Eagle Man" airmail (Scott C68, design AP18) by color. There is (according to Scott): brown carmine, lake, rose red and dark carmine. Another "fun" project would be to sort a bunch of early Colombia by paper color.
On another note. The SG color chart with the holes is the one I remember seeing. I seem to think that the same thing with actual confirmed stamps, as the individual did, would be more accurate as long as the stamp was not faded.
Jerry B
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I.L.S.
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I am in Clearfield, Pa. I love US Classic covers!
Posts: 2,113
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Post by I.L.S. on Sept 20, 2013 15:12:07 GMT
OK, This morning I was researching the dyes used in the manufacturing and printing of stamps and in particular CARMINE. Here is what I found: CARMINE is a dye made from an insect that lives on a cactus called Opuntia otherwise known as the "prickly-pear" Here is the bug- the Cochineal  Interesting notes: * It takes about 80-100 thousand insects to make one kilo of cochineal dye. * Many Muslims consider carmine containing food forbidden {haraam} because the dye is extracted from insects and all insects except the Locust are haraam in Islam. * Jews also avoid food containing this additive (even though it is not treif and some authorities allow its use because the insect is dried and reduced to powder). * Cochineal is one of the few water-soluble colourants that resist degradation with time. It is one of the most light- and heat-stable and oxidation-resistant of all the natural organic colourants and is even more stable than many synthetic food colours. * Cochineal was used to make the British Soldiers coats red hence the name "Redcoats"! Farming the Cactus and the Cochineal in Australia
The host cactus Opuntia (also known as "Prickly pear") was first brought to Australia in an attempt to start a cochineal dye industry in 1788, when Captain Arthur Phillip collected a number of cochineal-infested plants from Brazil on his way to establish the first European settlement at Botany Bay (part of which is now Sydney, New South Wales). At that time, Spain and Portugal had a worldwide monopoly (via their New World colonial sources) on the cochineal dye industry, and the British desired a source under their own control, as the dye was important to their clothing and garment industries (it was used to colour the British soldiers' red coats, for example).[21] The attempt was a failure in two ways: the Brazilian cochineal insects soon died off, but the cactus thrived, eventually overrunning about 100,000 square miles (259,000 km2) of eastern Australia.[22] The cacti were eventually brought under control in the 1920s by the deliberate introduction of a South American moth, Cactoblastis cactorum, whose larvae fed on the cactus.[22] And for our chemistry minded collector. Here is the Chemical structure of the carmine dye that's made from the bug.  All of this information can be found on this Wikipedia article:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochineal#Dye |
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rod222
Member
Posts: 11,047
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Sept 20, 2013 23:44:49 GMT
Interesting, I thought the prickly pear was brought to Australia with Italian immigrants.
I have a prickly pear about 200 metres from wher I live.
The fruit is delicious, but a bit tricky to peel.
Now, if we could only get rid of that other introduced pest, the Cane Toad
it's wiping out all our native Fauna, and Governments seem to do nothing.
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in another catalogue.