philatelia
Member
Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
Posts: 3,655
What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
|
Post by philatelia on Jul 12, 2022 21:07:28 GMT
Does anyone know what these are? I’m 95% sure that they are Japanese. Thank you!
|
|
philatelia
Member
Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
Posts: 3,655
What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
|
Post by philatelia on Jul 13, 2022 0:18:38 GMT
I tried Google image search and didn’t find anything remotely similar. Any ideas?
|
|
Philatarium
Member
Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,032
What I collect: Primarily focused on Japan, but lots of other material catches my eye as well ...
|
Post by Philatarium on Jul 13, 2022 0:35:10 GMT
To be honest, I don't know if these are Japanese or Chinese. (I think definitely one or the other, because of the writing.) Sometimes, when there's more writing, I can spot the syllabaries (hiragana and katakana) that are unique to Japanese, but that's not the case here.
The rising sun certainly seems evocative of Japan, and the style of both stamps seems Japanese-ey, but that's not a very definitive indicator.
I'll be watching to see if anyone else can shed some light on these! (They are pretty!)
|
|
darkormex
Member
Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,199
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
|
Post by darkormex on Jul 13, 2022 0:48:56 GMT
Philatarium, do you have any insight here? I believe the Chinese characters are as follows: 同情週閒. The same characters are written vertically on both stamps even though writing styles are different. Google translate recognizes the language as Chinese and gives me a Chinese language translation into English of "Sympathy for Zhou Xian". This is potentially a nonsensical translation,especially if I got the characters wrong. So, the implication is that it is not recognizing this as Japanese language use of Kanji or Korean language use of Hanja. My gut says these are Chinese cinderellas but from Taiwan rather than mainland China or PRC. Others may have better insight than I.
|
|
darkormex
Member
Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,199
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
|
Post by darkormex on Jul 13, 2022 1:14:04 GMT
philatelia, I posted the image on my Definitively Stamps FB page and asked if anyone recognizes them.
|
|
Philatarium
Member
Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,032
What I collect: Primarily focused on Japan, but lots of other material catches my eye as well ...
|
Post by Philatarium on Jul 13, 2022 1:48:02 GMT
I just posted somewhere else, and have already gotten a reply from someone I would consider authoritative.
Here is his reply:
They appear to be Japanese cinderellas for "Sympathy Week". This was a charity movement that I think began during the early Showa era (late 1920's - early 1930's), so I suspect these would date from that period.
|
|
darkormex
Member
Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,199
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
|
Post by darkormex on Jul 13, 2022 1:57:56 GMT
I took the information that Dave received and searched Japan Sympathy Week Cinderella and found the below explanation from a website called Japan Reference or jref.com: "It's "Sympathy Week" (as in a special seven-day period), not "Weekly" (as in the name of a periodical). The two 4-character parts refer to separate things, and should not be merged together when read." And additionally, from a different user of the site: "同情週間 was a year‐end charity donation campaign done by Asahi Shinbun from 1924 to 1936." On that same site there was an image of a cinderella from the same campaign.
|
|
darkormex
Member
Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,199
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
|
Post by darkormex on Jul 13, 2022 1:59:51 GMT
I can see my mistake with Google translate was to string all the characters together in a line rather than separating them as noted above. Regardless, I don't think Google translate would have correctly identified them though it did get the "sympathy" part correct.
|
|
philatelia
Member
Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
Posts: 3,655
What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
|
Post by philatelia on Jul 13, 2022 12:32:54 GMT
Excellent Detective work, fellas! Thank you.
I amended the title of the thread so that it will be easier to find in searches.
I really love the designs. Japanese art is so peaceful and lovely.
|
|
zipper
Member
Posts: 2,649
What I collect: Classic GB, QV, France Ceres/Napoleon, Classic U.S., Cinderella & Poster Stamps
|
Post by zipper on Jul 13, 2022 20:36:27 GMT
I have found the Japanese people to be the best behaved in the world.
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,917
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Jul 13, 2022 21:14:17 GMT
Philatarium , do you have any insight here? I believe the Chinese characters are as follows: 同情週閒. The same characters are written vertically on both stamps even though writing styles are different. Google translate recognizes the language as Chinese and gives me a Chinese language translation into English of "Sympathy for Zhou Xian". This is potentially a nonsensical translation,especially if I got the characters wrong. So, the implication is that it is not recognizing this as Japanese language use of Kanji or Korean language use of Hanja. Hey, Darrin, just a tip for future reference: once you identify the Chinese characters as you have done (nice work, by the way!), enter them into Google Translate under both Chinese-to-English and Japanese-to-English and see what you get. I have noticed that the translations can be markedly different. That is because Japan adopted Chinese characters during different periods in history, sometimes for their meaning but other times for their pronunciation, if I recall correctly. Based on that, it would make sense that the meanings of some characters would not necessarily be the same in both Chinese and Japanese. From Wikipedia: As Dave ( Philatarium ) points out, I also generally look for hiragana or katakana characters as a clue that the writing is Japanese rather than Chinese, but when those are not present, try using the translation software for both, and those results will often point you in the right direction. Nice detective work on both your parts, Dave and Darrin!
|
|
darkormex
Member
Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,199
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
|
Post by darkormex on Jul 13, 2022 22:40:38 GMT
Beryllium Guy , my process for this was not limited to Google but I did not break the string of characters up in Google translate when I searched as Japanese rather than Chinese. My first step was to determine which characters were on the stamps. I only knew one of them, 閒 (mun in Korean) so I used the Naver Chinese Character dictionary draw feature, hanja.dict.naver.com/#/main, to draw the characters and determine what characters I was dealing with. This way I had a correct character to copy and paste into other websites in order to determine meaning. I use Naver because it is what I am familiar with...I have it on my phone and on my laptop for Korean language learning. After determining the characters I went to the Japanese Kanji Dictionary website, en.ikanji.jp/ and I tried various characters and was actually able to come up with sympathy and week but I could not come up with anything that was able to give me a coherent meaning to the whole set of characters and I am not familiar enough with Japanese to use it correctly, most likely. I went back to Google translate at that point and could only get a somewhat correct translation in Chinese even after breaking it up into blocks of 2 characters which I thought might be the better way of handling the translate feature. I tried this in Japanese too but I did not even attempt to break it up into separate blocks of 2 characters which is why I went with Chinese as a possible base language. At least one of the characters I put into the kanji dictionary was not recognized which also led me astray so I went with my gut and thought maybe it was Chinese rather than Japanese.
|
|
Philatarium
Member
Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,032
What I collect: Primarily focused on Japan, but lots of other material catches my eye as well ...
|
Post by Philatarium on Jul 13, 2022 23:31:16 GMT
Darrin ( darkormex ) and Chris ( Beryllium Guy ), I wonder if the problem Darrin encountered was a possible consequence of the kanji simplification process as part of the recovery after World War 2. My Japanese even at its peak was never good enough to engage in a robust analysis of the subject, but some kanji were simplified as part of a reformation of the language. (As I recall, even several hiragana and perhaps a katakana or two were simplified as well.) Perhaps at least one of the kanji Darrin figured out was in the old style, since the cinderalla was a pre-war item. Just one of them changing could cause Google to assume it was Chinese. (And of course there were simplifications in Chinese as well after the Revolution; I should look this up to confirm, but I think Taiwan has kept most or all of the older style characters, so that the simplification is primarily in the PRC.) Such a can of worms! At any rate, here's a Wikipedia article about the reform in Japan, although it's fairly technical: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%ABjitaiAnd Darrin, I'm going to have to see if I can find a tool like that for Japanese. There are time where that would really come in handy with non-digital sources or images!
|
|
darkormex
Member
Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,199
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
|
Post by darkormex on Jul 14, 2022 0:24:34 GMT
Dave, ( Philatarium ) my thinking was that if I was able to get the correct set of characters, which it looks like I did, I would use them in doing a simple google search in the search bar and then look at the images that came up hoping that somewhere along the line an image of either this set of cinderellas or similar had been posted. I did this, several times, and looked through pages of images but nothing...I also went to eBay and looked at Japanese and Chinese cinderellas but again, nothing, though, in hindsight I should have also looked at sold listings but no matter. I did this before I even knew the meaning of any of the characters. In the end Dave, the best thing to do was what you did and go right to those knowledgeable about Japanese philately on the FB group. Yes, I am pretty sure Taiwan has kept mostly old style characters as has Korea If you are referring to the drawing tool, I am pretty sure there are a number of websites available that have that type of character recognition by using your mouse to draw the character on a digital pad. I actually tried a Chinese site for a minute but went back to Korean Naver just because it was easier to use and I understood what I was looking at. The kanji site was a random find and I did not explore it in depth but it might also have this drawing tool feature.
|
|
darkormex
Member
Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,199
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
|
Post by darkormex on Jul 14, 2022 0:30:55 GMT
Also, a number of sites allow you to upload an image which has characters and crop or digitally highlight the character in order to match it up to a dictionary but the characters on the stamps are too fuzzy and don't have crisp lines and, in the case of the image on the right, there is a background network of lines that would not allow the app to recognize the image. So no luck there as well.
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,917
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Jul 14, 2022 6:10:27 GMT
Darrin ( darkormex), it sounds like your work was above and beyond thorough, so apologies if my suggestion made it seem otherwise. Very nice work, indeed! I studied Japanese for 2-3 years, but that was nearly 10 years ago already, so I have forgotten a lot. Dave ( Philatarium), your comment about the simplification of the characters makes good sense, and although I knew about that, I didn’t really consider it. If you want a simple way to create electronic characters, you can just use a smartphone. There is a keyboard for Chinese that is basically a blank drawing board that recognizes characters. You can just make the character by tracing with your finger on the screen. I never studied Chinese, but I found this keyboard useful for Japanese when I ran into a character that I didn’t recognize, and that I didn’t know how to pronounce in Japanese so that I could spell it in Hiragana.
|
|