stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Sept 15, 2023 0:07:35 GMT
Not seeing a dedicated thread, and considering the number of stamps in this series, it seems to make sense to gather all entries in one place (if this is a redundancy, Admin please re-assign!) First issued in 1932, they contininued in use intot he early 1940s (including surcharged issues in use from 1940 -14. As with most things 'philatelicly' France, there are varying levels of agreement (and disagreement). The first issue Yvert #280 has two color variants, and Y&T and Maury agree. Next is #281, both Y&T and Maury note two types (I and II), which Maury lists separately #281 I, and 281 II; whereas Y&T lists 281 Type I and 281a is the Type II. Maury provides images detailing the difference, whereas Y&T provides text only. Both references list only one color (Lilac).... This is fairly typical of the variance in color shade TAccording to Y&T: Type 1. Le barre horizontale format la base de la boucle du R de FRANCAISE est mince par rapport a l'ensemble des traits de la lettre. Type II ( roulette) 1 la barre du R est d'epaisseur normale.
(translated using Google Translate): Type 1. The horizontal bar formatting the base of the loop of the R in FRANCAISE is thin in relation to all the strokes of the letter.Type II (caster) 1 the R bar is of normal thickness.Maury offers two images with a description for each: Type I "F" epais, barred "R" amincie. (Thick “F”, thinned “R” barred.). and Type II "F" fin, barre du "R" normale (“F” fine, “R” bar normal). Y&T makes no mention of th "F", and indicates Type II was roulette (which in the prefers to stamps that have the perfs knife cut into single strips of typically 600 stamps fror machine dispensation. Francon & Storch discuss the TYpe as a Roulettes, but also state it exists in sheets., They also mention a Type 3, with the difference being the 40c is much thinner. Looking at the 25 out of 104 stamps that exhibit the 'normal" "R", all are used, and all have fibers at the perfs making it difficult to tell if the sides were rouletted. I'll spend some time tomorrow scanning individually to see if I can detect a rouletted side, and also look more closely at the "F" Below is a close up (scope) of what I beleive to be a Type II "R" and here are several with 'thinned R" and seem to meet the criteria for a Type I, however there does seem to be some variation and then there is this (I found 4 like this) the barre of the "R" is broken....
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Post by gstamps on Sept 15, 2023 9:06:53 GMT
stainlessb, Stan For type II (rotary printing) it is recommended to collect in a vertical strip of 11 - so it can be safely differentiated from type I (flat printing - after 10 vertical stamps the white edge of the sheet appears) I found some comments about the thickness of the horizontal bar of the letter R (with normal thickness...but still not type II) Teeth cut on one side or 2...can also be made with scissors. Normally, a higher height should appear on rotary printed stamps (type II) compared to type I (flat printed), but I did not find this difference mentioned on French stamps (unlike US or German stamps where it is mentioned this difference) Below I found an image of one of the type II stamps from the strip of 11 (www.lemarchedutimbre.com):
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Sept 15, 2023 14:19:51 GMT
The strips do make it easier, and that is how I found one strip of 3 of the Semeuse*, which if you recall, all did not show the type characteristics in the image itself. All i have are used stamps and I think this may cause some ...deterioration of the perfs... but I hadn't thought of the the height difference. The 50c Pasteur has one rotary printed stamp which is 0.5mm taller. (something else to check). In looking online, I'm not seeing a great many of these stamps being offered (probably should hunt under the Scott # on E-Bay.
I notice in the image you posted the signatures appear underlined- I did notice this in some.... perhaps it is connected.
*The strip of 3 had one partially separated perf , so it became a stip of 2 and 2 for individual display.
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Post by gstamps on Sept 15, 2023 17:35:43 GMT
stainlessb, Stan Please excuse me, but I think that type I was also printed in rotation and therefore the height of the stamp does not differ from type II.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Sept 15, 2023 18:35:24 GMT
George ( gstamps ) you may be right. I cannot find a definitive mention, but I did just notice that the 30c in Maury Ceres & Dallay has the roulette symbol in the 30c legend.. Francon and Storch make no mention, but specifically call out the 40c Type II as mainly roulette (aside from the mention of some in sheets, there is no indication as to how many). The Type II was in print for almost 5 year (Jjan 33 - Dec 37), so I am surprised they are (seemingly) difficult to find?! Going back through the intial 'deemed to be Type II at much higher resolution/magnificaytion I have reduced it from 24 to 10, but all used, an no clear indication of roulette (paper fiber on most of th eperfs 'ends', although I still wonder if soaking may cause this.....I have made inquiries to several dealers I have dealt with to see if they can provide one (or a single and a strip (to see if the traits are consistent) I decided to start on these rather that re-take up the Semeus as I thought these might be easier to get through.....
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Dec 6, 2023 20:21:33 GMT
Yvert 283 IIB roulette, vertical pair. this was a surprising find, 1) because the rouletted stamps seems difficult to come across, so to find a vertical pair is quite nice. [there is a premium CV for 3 in a row!] 2), if I read the year postmark correctly as 19 39, then this was a later use, as the rouletted issues were only in production for Sept 1933 to Aug 1937., and 3) the straight cut at the bottom, it nice a parallel to the image frame and is even on both sides with the perfs... a very careful scissor cut, or perhaps the end of the roll? The roulettes were, as far as my understanding were intended for use in dispensers and were knife cut after perforation. iI believe the rolls were 600 stamps each (but at the moment I cannot find where I read this)
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Dec 7, 2023 23:36:35 GMT
50 centimes Yvert # 283 Types I - IV. I went through almost 300 stamps and the roulette (IIB) is the scarcest followed by the Type IV (found 5 total. I and III are common, and IIB also had a relatively good showing (29), I printed several different layouts and settled on this one. The cut square is from postal stationary. Most used the Type IA die. The IB were print to order (I cannot find an other information, but the tail of the "Q" in REPUBLIQUE touches the outer frame, and there is also a small triangle shape inside the "Q" (look inside the lower half ogf the "8" cancellation below)
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Dec 8, 2023 18:28:43 GMT
65 centimes Yvert 284- 2 color shades, but I think these are the same color, and the overall height is not what prompts me to post, but they appear to be on two different paper types, although I can find no listing or mention. I have more on white paper *both color shades), and a few on the yellowish paper, although the one shown has the lightest cancellation- The back seems much too uniform to label this as something cause by environmental conditions what do you think?
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renden
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Post by renden on Dec 8, 2023 18:46:10 GMT
Stan stainlessbLooks like 2 types of paper, one white (as Maury 284 describes) with a violet-brun (brown violet) color.The other color (yellowish) is not mentioned in Maury who has a 284b which describes a violet brown rosé but I do not see this. René
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Dec 8, 2023 18:50:32 GMT
Here are the two shades side by side ( very subtle... as are many)
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Dec 9, 2023 14:20:53 GMT
I soaked the yellowish paper stamp in peroxide for 20 minutes. No change in paper color.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Dec 30, 2023 21:45:54 GMT
1932 - 1941 75 centime , olive # 284A. The only paper variety listed is papier mince (transparent) which is thin enough to make out the printed image from the back fairly easily. Stamps below are NOT the papier mince. Many of the stamps I have have are on a more whitish paper, but I have enough of the ?GC? paper to think it's not some odd anomaly However, I have a few which appear to be on a yellowish/browinish (almost GC) paper Below are images of the back taken with my scope, lighting* and focus distances are the same for each. It looks like two different papers to me. If it were staining, I would not expect such eveness front-to-back- the images are in the same order as above * incandescent
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Dec 30, 2023 23:16:26 GMT
1932 - 1941 75 centime , olive # 284A. The only paper variety listed is papier mince (transparent) which is thin enough to make out the printed image from the back fairly easily. Stamps below are NOT the papier mince. Many of the stamps I have have are on a more whitish paper, but I have enough of the ?GC? paper to think it's not some odd anomaly However, I have a few which appear to be on a yellowish/browinish (almost GC) paper Below are images of the back taken with my scope, lighting* and focus distances are the same for each. It looks like two different papers to me. If it were staining, I would not expect such eveness front-to-back- the images are in the same order as above * incandescent
Stan, No expert, but I think these issues are too late for "Grande Consommation" GC stamps ? Mainly the Merson and Sower Types
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Dec 31, 2023 0:19:34 GMT
I don't have any real history or details regarding the GC paper, beyond a lower quality and used because resources were scarce, and it is likely incorrect . I added it as a reference to what the GC paper looked like. I am seeing enough stamps in this time period (pretty close to Great Depression years) that seem to have this 'not so whitish' paper to think it is more than just an 'aging/discoloration issue. Given the depression, it would not be a stretch to think that shortcuts were taken.
Francon and Storch seem to have the most detailed reference I have come across, and there does seem to be a lot of different papers listed, just nothing for this stamp beyond the 'mince' and a few 'epais", Envelopes (postal stationary) were printed using 7 different paper types that i have found noted (so far) but not much detail. (65 c Outremer)
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Dec 31, 2023 1:25:24 GMT
I don't have any real history or details regarding the GC paper, beyond a lower quality and used because resources were scarce, and it is likely incorrect . I added it as a reference to what the GC paper looked like. I am seeing enough stamps in this time period (pretty close to Great Depression years) that seem to have this 'not so whitish' paper to think it is more than just an 'aging/discoloration issue. Given the depression, it would not be a stretch to think that shortcuts were taken. Francon and Storch seem to have the most detailed reference I have come across, and there does seem to be a lot of different papers listed, just nothing for this stamp beyond the 'mince' and a few 'epais", Envelopes (postal stationary) were printed using 7 different paper types that i have found noted (so far) but not much detail. (65 c Outremer) I generally avoid commenting on GC paper, it can offend those who are more sensitive. Colour of paper cannot be the only deciding factor, it fills the palette from white to dark brown.
This was my data, on forming opinions of my own in 2008 Take from it, what you will
Marginal markings K= Unknown Printed on the 23rd December, ("23012" Printing Press number 27 )
The "9" halfway up the centre panneau, denotes the year (1919)
PS: still waiting to find out the reason for the punched holes, I have seen an explanation, but have lost it.
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Post by franoise on Dec 31, 2023 5:14:04 GMT
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Dec 31, 2023 5:32:06 GMT
franoise Time for the dancing banana Thank you very much, been looking for that for at least 2 years Whilst I have you, can you explain, perhaps show an example of an "epreuve d'abonnement" sheet please? PS: Google automatically translated the page you offered.
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Post by franoise on Dec 31, 2023 6:29:38 GMT
I'm sorry but I've never heard this term "epreuve d'abonnement" Maybe a reference to cards like this one French Post used to send them as gifts to the subscribers to the Philatelic Service. But they're not actually "proofs"
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Dec 31, 2023 7:59:03 GMT
I'm sorry but I've never heard this term "épreuve d'abonnement" Maybe a reference to cards like this one French Post used to send them as gifts to the subscribers to the Philatelic Service. But they're not actually "proofs" That's it franoise ! Marvelous. Thank you. Was not in my French Phil. Glossary.
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hrdoktorx
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Post by hrdoktorx on Dec 31, 2023 8:56:39 GMT
The holes in the margins are control punches (for accounting purposes) Good to know! I always thought these perforations were somehow to help keep the paper in place during the printing process.
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JeffS
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Post by JeffS on Dec 31, 2023 9:50:06 GMT
franoise. I was delighted with the link that took me to the Chambon rotary press and the reference to being used on the stamps of Monaco.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Dec 31, 2023 14:59:42 GMT
Excellent information. and moving forward in this thread I won't mention GC again Below is (perhaps) a better illustration of the difference in paper(s). Using my scanner at the highest resolution I can get, the lighting is uniform (and better than my incancescent bulb, which I'm going to need to improve on)
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Jan 14, 2024 21:37:53 GMT
Putting away some stamps from a recent mixed lot and I found this! Yvert 383 Type III, as best I can tell Blédine pour Le Sevrage has to do with weaning children from breats feeding (?!>) and it's one I do not have! (even better) Narbonne, Aude, in Southern France in the Occitanie Department
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Jan 14, 2024 22:29:36 GMT
Putting away some stamps from a recent mixed lot and I found this! Yvert 383 Type III, as best I can tell Blédine pour Le Sevrage has to do with weaning children from breats feeding (?!>)and it's one I do not have! (even better) Narbonne, Aude, in Southern France BANDES PUBLICITAIRES BLEDINE on 50c Peace Looks like #203 Spink page 618 Unable to understand the varieties
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Jan 14, 2024 22:54:21 GMT
If you are referring to the Blédine + ...etc., that would be full panes with both advertisers. According to Francon & Storch, the 50 ccarnets exists in all 4 types. Type 1 & 3 appear the most common, and the Type less so, with Type 4 the least common. The ones with two advertisements are listed in F&S as Type 2 and in 1973 had a catalogue value of 60 - 1 France, with a complete booklet worth 350 F (are your values in Euros?)
The carnets also were printed with no advertisements in the selvedge (and for those you need at least a partial pane with bost sides intact (as I find nothing to indicate what size selvedge was on sheets)
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hrdoktorx
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Post by hrdoktorx on Jan 15, 2024 6:38:03 GMT
Putting away some stamps from a recent mixed lot and I found this! Yvert 383 Type III, as best I can tell Blédine pour Le Sevrage has to do with weaning children from breast feeding (?!>) and it's one I do not have! (even better) Narbonne, Aude, in Southern France in the Occitanie Department Indeed, Blédine is a brand of baby foods (which you can still find today), including formula, so you have understood the message of the ad. Small correction: Occitanie is a Region, which is the level above Département, in this case Aude (#11 in the postal codes).
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Jan 15, 2024 15:29:39 GMT
Thanks for the clarification Xavier! hrdoktorx
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Feb 23, 2024 23:07:53 GMT
Plodding along- the second series consisted of 8 denominations and 9 issues (the 90 centimes was printed in two colors). The 60c, 65c, 80c, and 90c (both colors) all have a listed color variety. There are a few Types, including carnets (booklets) and roulette cut; Yverts # 363 - 371 Below is a handful of stamps pulled from my first pass to get out of mixed envelopes/Varios. The 55 c shows what to my eyes looks like very different shades, as does the 1F and 1F 25. Thus far a roulette cut examples has eluded me, but i have founds 'ordinary' perforated stamps that have the traits that are only listed for the roulette Type (as discussed in the France Stamps threads). gstamps provided some helpful information, and I have since found a brief mention in Francon & Storch France Specialise 1900 -1940 that translated seems to say they... recognize fragments of roulette printed sheets (apparently not yet knife cut) being sold to the public. but for now, an assortment of colors! (and as is typical- the upload has dimmed down a bit)
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Post by gstamps on Feb 24, 2024 9:47:37 GMT
stainlessb, 6 years ago I started collecting French stamps (I know French and had the YT catalog) I gave up quite quickly because the information found on the net was often confusing or even contradictory. Appreciate your effort to identify these stamps. You have bought many catalogs and specialized works about these French stamps and from what you write in your posts I realize that you have the same confusion that I went through. It is obvious that in France there are several schools of expertise that work with the different catalogs and that have different descriptions for these types of stamps; I suspect that competition and lack of collaboration lead to this identification difficulty for ordinary collectors. In my YT 2018 catalog (Volume 1) no color variety is mentioned for the YT 280 - 289 stamps. For the 55c /YT 363 stamp - in your post 2 shades appear - but in my catalog they do not appear. I searched in the "Coins dates" chapter and found two issues mentioned, 1937 and 1938. Were they made in two shades? The French collect these blocks of 4 stamps with the date of issue written on the edge and I saw a sale price of 1-2 US$. I think you should collect these blocks for the color variations (they are MNH and the color is as unaffected as possible - it also depends on the storage conditions) I saw how concerned you are with identifying the different types and initially I thought it was due to different emissions such as the date or plate modification. I noticed the following mention in YT for 50c/YT283 stamp pairs: it is obvious that these different types appear on the same pane/printing plate and represent a field characteristic. Did you find in the works/catalogues you own in which field these types are found? And for the confusion to be even greater in the chapter "Coins dates" I found (issue 1932- 37): and it is obvious that in an issue (which one?) there is the horizontal/vertical pair of type I with type III. stainlessb, you are a hero to me for trying to clarify this information.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Feb 24, 2024 16:10:56 GMT
gstamps Yes, there is not a great deal of consensus among the various schools/catalogues. My first catalogue was Y&T, but I read of Maury, and upon looking into his catalogues, discovered he had started detailing France philately earlier that Yvert & Tellier. It is my understanding that due to wider circulation of the Y&T catalogues was the reason Maury adopted their (Y&T) numbering system to reduce some of the confusion. Maury, Ceres, & Dally is my primary reference and main source for page layout and such, with Francon collaborations with others a very sold back-up (and in some cases primary) I may have spent as much money on references of France as I have on the stamps. It was clear from before 1900 differences in opinion began to emerge. I almost purchased the Y&T Specialized catalogue, but a dealer literally talked me out of it after discussing what references I already had, saying there would nothing I didn't already have. Despite the Y&T Timbres de France being a large volume, I now consider it generalized when compared to other catalogues, especially (IMHO) Maury, Ceres, & Dallay. Y&T does provide some useful information, but as an example #283 I see by your scan the Type IV is omitted. It is unfortunate that the acquisition of rights to publication by Spinks of Maury' works has resulted in an edited down version.... As to plate position of the adjacent Types, there is some information, but it is inconsistent from stamp to stamp I find the Francon, Storch, & Brun (apart or together) to be quite detailed, although I am also frustrated at times by what seems to be missing details. and there are still a few of the works I do not have. I have been slowly picking up stamps with date stamp in the margins, and gutter pairs with year, but it is slow. Once i get my existing inventory gone through with pages up to 1959, I can then hopefully start liquidating my excess and seeking the higher CV and also dated examples (If I live that long LOL) thank you for your kind words, I am but a pilgrim on the road
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