vikingeck
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What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Apr 7, 2021 20:08:19 GMT
Moderator Note: It was requested by Mark ( skid) to move all posts associated with the discussion of Chalon reprints to a separate thread. If any members whose posts have been moved would prefer for them to be back in the Chalons thread, please contact me by PM, and I will move your posts back.
hi DK Dave can I ask you Kiwis about the status of this Chalon black proof on light card ? Is it a late reprint for an exhibition or is it a "proof". Whatever it is, does it have a market value ?
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 7, 2021 20:29:18 GMT
hi DK Dave can I ask you Kiwis about the status of this Chalon black proof on light card ? Is it a late reprint for an exhibition or is it a "proof". Whatever it is, does it have a market value ? Hi Alex If this is on card stock then there are a couple of possibilities dependent on the thickness of the card. On thick, stiff card stock - Hausberg produced a ton of these for a publication that never eventuated back in 1906 - @2000 sheets of the 2d value. Worth a few dollars only each. The other values are worth more as only 20 or so sheets each were produced of these. A thinner card stock, similar to a double thickness paper - produced by William Jolliffe for a book he produced in 1913 'The History of New Zealand Stamps'. He highlights in the book the damage from the lower portion of Plate 2. In the book are attached reprints of two halfs of rows 14 thru' 20. These are worth a bit more but best when still bound to that book. There were other 'proofs' produced and the printing clarity is usually very sharp. Usually found on good quality India paper. Worth a lot more ! Cheers Dave NB I was just about to go to work so my answers above are from memory (without double checking first) :-)
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skid
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Posts: 327
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Apr 7, 2021 23:52:54 GMT
I have been lucky to pick up a full sheet of Hausberg's 2d (with a couple of folds) and have two copies of Jolliffe's book (a soft cover and hard cover) with the reprints. Lots of other 2d Hausberg's of various multiples and a 12 block of Jolliffe's. I also have singles of 3d, 4d, 6d and 1/-, and a couple of 2d that are something else. Thick paper or very thin card Thick brown card Thin card, It is green, so not Volume II of the postage stamps of NZ, which is orange.
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 8, 2021 5:54:57 GMT
I believe that the 'Green' reprints were produced for an Exhibition in 1980. Blue ones also exist.
Dave
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DK
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Posts: 1,251
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 8, 2021 6:02:16 GMT
1906 Hausberg Reprints1913 Jolliffe Reprints as found in his book 'The History of New Zealand Stamps'Dave
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skid
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Posts: 327
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Apr 8, 2021 14:07:00 GMT
Thick paper or very thin card I think this is a plate proof. Compare paper texture with Jolliffe, which is the only other reprint that has thin card/thick paper
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 9, 2021 5:24:14 GMT
I think this is a plate proof.... Compare paper texture with Jolliffe, which is the only other reprint that has thin card/thick paper Hi Skid I am no expert on these proofs - I do not have any (Just the common old Hausberg and Jolliffe reprints). I believe however, that there are Plate Proofs and also Die Proofs. There is India Paper and Wove paper. I am not sure which is your one above but certainly the impression is very clear and crisp and the paper looks different to the card stock. So, it is probably a proof, but I am not sure which. Dave
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gc
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Posts: 266
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Post by gc on Apr 9, 2021 5:45:19 GMT
Hi Dave and Skid My guess is a very clear Hausburg reprint from 1906 from the 2d Plate 11, Row 13 No 2 I have attached my genuine plate proof pair from Plate 1. Unfortunately no die proofs at this stage ( not many around ) Cheers Grant
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DK
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Posts: 1,251
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 9, 2021 5:55:29 GMT
Hi Grant
Long time no hear :-)
There are certainly some very crisp impressions done by Hausberg but Skid suggested his was on thin card or thick paper? Hausbergs are on undeniably thick card stock.
That is the problem in trying to assist via the internet. We cannot see the item in the flesh, so to speak.
Are you aware of Hausberg reprints being done on thin card or thick paper?
Dave
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gc
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Posts: 266
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Post by gc on Apr 9, 2021 7:43:05 GMT
Hi Dave
Most sources suggest 1020 sheets of the 2d plate 11 were printed in April 1906 on thin, slightly cream-toned card 0.01in thick. 20 sheets were retained by the Postal Department, with the remaining 1,000 sheets sent to My Hausburg
However a second printing of 26 sheets in August 1906 on fairly thin slightly-toned wove paper 0.004in thick of the 1d, 2d plate 1, 2d plate 11, 3d, 4d, 6d and 1/- was done. The Postal Department retaining 20 sheets of each and the remaining 6 sheets were sent to Mr Hausburg.
Apparently of all the sheets retained by the Postal Department only one sheet of each was kept with the others being destroyed in 1936
Hope this helps.
Cheers Grant
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skid
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Posts: 327
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Apr 9, 2021 14:20:19 GMT
Thanks Dave and Grant. What I think is a proof is on thinner card (or paper) than the Hausburg, more similar thickness to the Jolliffe. Interestingly, I have some Hausburg on more toned card, but the thickness is about the same as my other Hausburgs. There were some Hausburg 2d plate I reprints, perhaps the toned card are those. Lee and Watts 2009 have information on thee plate proofs. Die proof Plate I indian paper mounted on white card Plate proof Plate I on medium thick white woven paper no watermark Die proof Plate II indian paper mounted on white card Plate proof Plate II on medium thick white woven paper no watermark Plate II on thick white woven paper no watermark Plate II on white woven paper no watermark Is mine on woven paper? It could be "Plate II on thick white woven paper no watermark" plate proof Can you upload a scan of the back of your proofs so I can compare the paper type. Toned version of Hausburg (note the difference in paper type)
Less toned version Hausburg (note the difference in paper type)
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skid
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Posts: 327
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Apr 9, 2021 14:26:18 GMT
Hi Dave and Skid My guess is a very clear Hausburg reprint from 1906 from the 2d Plate 11, Row 13 No 2 I have attached my genuine plate proof pair from Plate 1. Unfortunately no die proofs at this stage ( not many around ) Cheers Grant Grant, How do you know it is from 2d Plate 11, Row 13 No 2 (I have not got into plating yet and would like to learn)
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 9, 2021 20:25:32 GMT
Hi Skid I will let Grant answer your specific questions around these Proofs/Reprints but in the meantime take a look at these 2 pages ex the Ken Lynch publication entitled " The Chalon Issues of New Zealand" and see what you are getting into here :-) Enjoy! Dave
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DK
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Posts: 1,251
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 9, 2021 23:10:50 GMT
Here is a block of 6 Hausbergs being sold on eBay currently : 2d Hausberg Reprint block of 6BIN price of US$19.99 These are the usual ones seen around the place. Worth a few dollars each only. A thick, creamy card stock (not a thinner paper. India or wove). Dave
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skid
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Posts: 327
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Apr 9, 2021 23:15:29 GMT
Thanks Dave,
From that, all it could be is
2d Plate 1 White card pre-production die proof (but Grant plated it plate II)
2d Plate 2 medium white woven paper pre-production die proof
Reproductions for postal department archives 1906, creamish rough medium woven paper (not sure if I would call the paper creamish)
But Ken Lynch does not list the plate proof of Plate II on thick white woven paper no watermark mentioned by Lee and Watts 2009
Crossing my fingers it is the die proof or even a plate proof.
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skid
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Posts: 327
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Apr 9, 2021 23:22:34 GMT
Dave,
What would you call the type of paper/card used for the block of 6 Hausbergs being sold on eBay that you mentioned. It looks less like the mesh of the "less toned" version I posted and more like mesh than the "toned" version I posted.
Thanks,
Mark
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 9, 2021 23:59:23 GMT
Dave, What would you call the type of paper/card used for the block of 6 Hausbergs being sold on eBay that you mentioned. It looks less like the mesh of the "less toned" version I posted and more like mesh than the "toned" version I posted. Thanks, Mark Hi Mark A thick, creamy card stock (not a thinner paper. India or wove). Ken Lynch refers to it as below : and also, When it comes to hoping what they might be, if unknown, always err on the side of caution - ie assume that it will not be the rarer ones but more likely the commoner ones. Dave
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skid
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Posts: 327
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Apr 10, 2021 0:16:14 GMT
A thick, creamy card stock (not a thinner paper. India or wove). Sorry for the confusion, I was not asking about whether it was paper or card, I was more interested in the texture of the card. With the high resolution scans available now, it might be possible to easily compare the texture of the paper/card, even better than by eye with the actual stamp. With the Chalon's there are terms like thin hard paper, thick soft paper, vertical mesh, horizontal mesh, ... the Pelure was described as like tissue paper (I think more for its transparency rather that actual thinness). I noted that the Hausbergs I posted had different texture than each other, and they appeared to be different than the texture of the ones you posted. Perhaps I am trying to distinguish too finely.
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DK
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Posts: 1,251
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 10, 2021 0:17:53 GMT
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 10, 2021 0:26:32 GMT
There are certainly a couple of types of card that were used. One the above, thick/creamy and a also a much thinner, whiter card. I dont believe that they are recognised as having a 'mesh' as per wove paper (I could be wrong!).
Andrew mentions on his site that some Hausbergs were printed on a wove paper - I am not too sure about that though. I am not knowledgable enough to comment at this stage.
This is an area where my knowledge falls down, due in main to having no examples of proofs in my possession. I would require an expert opinion myself. But based on certain knowledge of the types of papers and cardstock one can make some assumptions.
Dave
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gc
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Posts: 266
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Post by gc on Apr 10, 2021 1:29:20 GMT
Hi Skid and Dave
There are 4 tell tail signs your copy was plate 11 Row 13, No 2
1. A small "dash" black mark top left hand corner ( just above the border ) 2. A small dot very top right hand corner 3. A small mark just above the border, which is above the "A" of ZEALAND 4. A small black mark toward the bottom of the "E" of PENCE
Cheers Grant
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skid
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Posts: 327
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Apr 10, 2021 2:06:36 GMT
Hi Skid and Dave There are 4 tell tail signs your copy was plate 11 Row 13, No 2 1. A small "dash" black mark top left hand corner ( just above the border ) 2. A small dot very top right hand corner 3. A small mark just above the border, which is above the "A" of ZEALAND 4. A small black mark toward the bottom of the "E" of PENCE Cheers Grant Thanks Grant. Much appreciated. Are these caused by plate damage, retouches, or wear (i.e used plate so Hausberg or other reprint) or re-entry or something else so it could be a proof?
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gc
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Post by gc on Apr 10, 2021 3:28:57 GMT
Hi Skid and Dave I would say mostly by plate wear. I attach my strip of 7 from Row 13, No's 2-8 ( and also a Hausburg strip from the same positions ). There is possibly a faint flaw above the "A" of ZEALAND, but apart from that I do not see the other flaws that I mentioned earlier. No definitive proof one way or another, I would let you guys decide. Grant
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skid
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Posts: 327
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Apr 10, 2021 4:02:40 GMT
I put them together so it is easier to compare them. My copy and Grants Hausburg have the same marks as Grant indicated. The actual stamp does not, except perhaps above the A and on the right edge of the stamp at the top. The color of the Hausburg is different, but I wonder if that is the scan.
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skid
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Posts: 327
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Apr 10, 2021 5:04:46 GMT
Just for completeness, here are some of the previous scans side by side:
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skid
Member
Posts: 327
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Apr 10, 2021 5:06:04 GMT
Here is another proof related item I have that may be of interest
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murfz1
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Posts: 48
What I collect: New Zealand Chalons and Associated Material
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Post by murfz1 on Apr 10, 2021 12:12:57 GMT
There are certainly a couple of types of card that were used. One the above, thick/creamy and a also a much thinner, whiter card. I dont believe that they are recognised as having a 'mesh' as per wove paper (I could be wrong!). Andrew mentions on his site that some Hausbergs were printed on a wove paper - I am not too sure about that though. I am not knowledgable enough to comment at this stage. This is an area where my knowledge falls down, due in main to having no examples of proofs in my possession. I would require an expert opinion myself. But based on certain knowledge of the types of papers and cardstock one can make some assumptions. Dave On my website, the section on the reprints I have a variety of different proofs and reprints. First are the " London" proofs and this has a cert from Bob Odenweller where he states medium white wove paper I show a scan of the back as a reference. Secondly is the example of the 1864 reprint of the plate I, worn state on very thick white wove unwatermarked paper. Bob Odenweller cert. Next the 1884 reprints which were printed on a star watermarked paper also shown on my website. The 1906 Hausburg prints were on a medium card.These were never produced on wove paper maybe the way I mentioned the 1864 printing on the Hausburg first page is confusing. There is difinitely a couple of card varieties as I have varying thicknesses in my examples. The 1907 HPS "Proofs" are on a thick white card. The 1913 Jolliffe reprints are on white wove ungummed paper example of both plates A and B are on the website. Regards Andrew
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skid
Member
Posts: 327
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Apr 10, 2021 16:32:52 GMT
After all this, my best guess was going to be Jolliffe because it has the marks Grant recognized on the Hausburg, but not on the actual stamp, so it is plate II after use. The thickness is exactly the same as a Jolliffe. But Grant Plated it at II Row 13, No 2, which I confirmed on my full Hausburg sheet (and the actual stamps plating appears to be correct based on the last stamp with worn area around the start of postage). The Jolliffe reprints are Row 14-20. So unless there were one or more unknown prints of the rest of the plate, it is not a Jolliffe. Jolliffe did produce an individual impression of No. 12 row 13 (Lee and Watts 2009). Perhaps he did the whole row and my stamp is from that. I do not have my book with me so not sure if it says how he did it. Grant suggest that there was a a second Hausburg printing of 26 sheets in August 1906 on fairly thin slightly-toned wove paper 0.004in thick. The Postal Department retaining 20 sheets of each and the remaining 6 sheets were sent to Mr Hausburg. This was also mentioned by Lee and Watts (2009) and is probably the "Reproductions for postal department archives 1906, creamish rough medium woven paper (not sure if I would call the paper creamish)" mentioned by Ken Lynch. Question: would this "slightly-toned wove paper 0.004in thick" be the same thickness of the Jolliffe and is my example "slightly-toned wove paper" Lee and Watts (2009) say Jolliffe's were cream toned paper 0.005in thick, which had a pronounced horizontal ribbing. On Andrew's website it states "It is thought that the Government Printer, prior to printing the sheets for Hausburg, also printed off a small number of sheets of each value, including both 2d plates, on wove paper, partly to check the condition of the plate." It could be one of these. Or these could be the same as the "Reproductions for postal department archives 1906" mentioned above. My guess is it is "Reproductions for postal department archives 1906" and may be from 6 or 26 sheets, depending on if the Postal Department destroyed its 20. Thanks everyone for your input. Mark
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 10, 2021 19:00:54 GMT
You have a very inquisitive mind Mark. That's great :-) But as you are finding out, these can be a bit of a minefield.
My question after this is:
When Jolliffe had his sheets printed for his book "The History of New Zealand Stamps" he had them cut up so that Rows 14 thru' 20 could be stuck into it. What happened to the remainders - ie Rows 1 thru 13?
Remember, these were not printed on thick card, nor on wove paper. They were printed on a white, very thin cardstock. Some may say a white, stiff paper!
Dave
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skid
Member
Posts: 327
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Apr 12, 2021 21:15:51 GMT
One approach to solve this mystery could be to simply plate a random sample of thin card/thick paper (i.e. Jolliffe thickness) examples and see what proportion come from the top part of the plate. If Jolliffe distributed the reprints from the top part of the plate, then you would expect there to be about 65% (13/20) of the sample from the top part and 35% (7/20) from the bottom part (the 600 sheets printed by Jolliffe would overwhelm the 20+6 sheets printed around the time of the Hausbergs and probably any confusion with real die and plate proofs). The issue would be whether the sample is random. Another is if only a limited proportion of the top part were distributed. Some factors that might make the sample not random.
1) Reprints from the book are generally kept in the book and therefore would not be seen as separate reprints. But this probably does not matter if the objective is to determine if Jolliffe distributed the top part as the result would be most are from the top part.
2) It is harder to plate the top part than the bottom part because the top part does not have plate damage (so unplanted stamps are not at random). A measure of this being an issue would be the proportion of stamps that can't be plated.
It would be interesting for anyone with thin card/thick paper (i.e. Jolliffe thickness) reprints to plate them to see what the distribution is. Are they plate 1 or 2 and are they from rows 1-13 or 14-20. We would also need to know of reprints that could not be plated, not just those that are plated.
However, since there were 1020 Hausbergs sheets created, then for every 100 thick card Hausbergs, you would expect 60 thin card Jolliffe's, so the thin cards should be more common than I have seen.
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