drjoe
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Post by drjoe on Jun 6, 2023 20:03:19 GMT
Trying to determine the usage of these 2 identical stamps. They could be Japanese revenue stamps since they have the "EP" In-shi characters that I note on Japanese revenues. Possibly Japanese occupation of China or PRC liberation stamps.
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jun 6, 2023 20:48:37 GMT
Thanks for your post, drjoe. Based on my rudimentary knowledge about Chinese characters, I can begin by telling you that I think the stamps are shown upside down in your image. Let’s tag some members with deeper knowledge on this subject: khj, Philatarium, Linda, darkormex, unechan
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drjoe
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Post by drjoe on Jun 6, 2023 21:02:21 GMT
Thanks for the quick reply! Agree since the central 2 characters would be in the upright position.
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Linda
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Post by Linda on Jun 6, 2023 22:43:26 GMT
These are indeed Chinese characters, and indeed the 'stamps' were upside down. However, even though I recognised each individual character, I am unable to make sense out of the whole.
手花店 枚伍 員印藝 (upside down in the corrected orientation)
The central row should be read from right to left. It literally means 5 followed by a 'counter' for thin piece of thing like paper or leaf.
(Once flipped to the corrected orientation) The top and bottom row appear to form a circle, and judging from the reading direction of the central row, I think this circle should be read counter-clockwise. But no matter from which character I start, the resulting expression never make sense in contemporary Mandarin. Not in my rudimentary understanding of contemporary Japanese either.
The only expression I can make out of this circle that makes sense is「花店」(read from left to right), which means flower shop.
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darkormex
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Post by darkormex on Jun 7, 2023 0:52:37 GMT
I am not home right now so I don’t have access to resources but will be able to check in about an hour or so.
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darkormex
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Post by darkormex on Jun 7, 2023 2:13:59 GMT
I did not see this listed in Yang’s Postage Stamp Catalogue of The People’s Republic of China (Liberated Area). I did, however, post this scan in another forum I belong to that specializes in Japanese stamps and am waiting for additional information.
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darkormex
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Post by darkormex on Jun 8, 2023 1:27:53 GMT
These are indeed Chinese characters, and indeed the 'stamps' were upside down. However, even though I recognised each individual character, I am unable to make sense out of the whole. 手花店 枚伍 員印藝 (upside down in the corrected orientation) The central row should be read from right to left. It literally means 5 followed by a 'counter' for thin piece of thing like paper or leaf. (Once flipped to the corrected orientation) The top and bottom row appear to form a circle, and judging from the reading direction of the central row, I think this circle should be read counter-clockwise. But no matter from which character I start, the resulting expression never make sense in contemporary Mandarin. Not in my rudimentary understanding of contemporary Japanese either. The only expression I can make out of this circle that makes sense is「花店」(read from left to right), which means flower shop. I am quoting Linda because along with her explanation, the explanation I received on the Japanese philately group I belong to is similar. Here are quotes from one of the members after he examined this stamp... "it does appear to be a revenue stamp 印花 of some kind from China, but I can't figure out the purpose." Also, "I'm not sure in what order to read the characters in the corners, but it seems to have something to do with a handcraft shop." In addition to the Yang liberated areas catalog, I also reviewed my copy of the China Stamp Society Specialized Catalog of China to 1949 and, again, came up empty handed. There is nothing remotely similar. I speculate that is a Chinese revenue of some type or even a cinderella. I am curious enough that I may continue looking but I would like to suggest that perhaps some of the other members tagged above may know more.
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darkormex
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Post by darkormex on Jun 8, 2023 1:46:11 GMT
As I was scrolling through the Chinese revenue stamp listings on ebay, looking for this particular stamp, using various search terms, I came across a listing for this specialized Chinese tax stamp catalog...I wonder if it might be listed in here? Alas, we may never know unless someone has this catalog.
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Linda
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Post by Linda on Jun 8, 2023 3:56:59 GMT
I Googled「藝印員手花店」and found this listing on the Chinese market: judging from the textual elements, the latter appears to be a similar -- if not the same -- thing, except that the central row (拾枚, read from left to right for this one) reads 10 'sheet' (counter for thin piece of obejct). The listing is preceeded by the term「苏區红军票」, which refers to banknotes issued by the Soviet military command in Northeast China in 1945–1946 like this one: The listing says it's「枚票」-- I honestly don't know and didn't find very much information on what it is. (To tell you the truth, I don't really know what revenue stamps / cinderella are either.) Further research led me to this webpage that talks about (postage) stamps issued by the Soviet military command in the same area, which include a stamp that uses the counter「枚」: This may be related to the thing in drjoe 's original post -- but I am not sure.
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khj
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Post by khj on Jun 8, 2023 6:01:17 GMT
If I remember correctly, the pic in the OP is a 5 mei handicrafts worker ("member") revenue stamp for Jiangxi (old designation Kiangsi) from early 1930s. Don't know exact date of issue or period of use. I don't have a catalog ID for it. Assuming genuine and disregarding condition, I can state that this is not a minimum value stamp -- I would figure more in the 2-3 digit values. This is definitely not a stamp I see often. Extra thanks for posting!!!
Sorry for the belated reply, but kudos to the others for valuable insights!
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drjoe
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Post by drjoe on Jun 8, 2023 14:44:22 GMT
Appreciate the input and photo w/ Chinese market listing site. Accessing this source and using the using the translation service it described the listing as "Ten Red Army Tickets in the Soviet Area-Pickets-Hand flower shop art printer". This description is similar to the "Hand flower shop coin staff printing art" translation when the Chinese characters are used in the counter-clockwise direction. Also, the Chinese marketing site mentions with the listing in it's "attributes:Liberated Area/Soviet Area Currency, Soviet Area Currency, Other Banks, Bare Coins, ,,, ,, Paper, Pieces,". Perhaps the stamps are tokens or some form of payment in the Chinese soviet liberated area. Image in the correct position as noted by participants. The central design illustration of the stamp appears to have a soviet/communist hammer and sickle with stars correlation.
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Post by daniel on Jun 8, 2023 16:23:43 GMT
drjoe, flower shops and armies don't normally sit well together 😉 From khj 's description, I found an auction listing for exactly what he had described see here, that is, "Chinese Soviet Republic, Southwest Kiangsi (Jiangxi), Revenue Stamps: 1932 c. Handicraft Employees Revenue. 5 mei brown". On the downside, there is no image shown and you have to sign-up to find the auction realisation, possibly entailing a fee. Daniel
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drjoe
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Post by drjoe on Jun 8, 2023 19:05:15 GMT
Daniel, Thanks for the input re: khj's reply. An image would definitely be in order to substantiate the description with the stamp listed in the Inter-Asia auction. At this point, it appears that the stamp is a Chinese Soviet republic, Southwest Kiangsi revenue stamp 1932c. for use as a handicraft (floral art shop printer?) purpose as noted in the translation of the characters and Linda's market listing as noted above.
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Linda
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Post by Linda on Jun 8, 2023 20:52:54 GMT
I found another Chinese auction site that lists a dozen such 'stamps'. Most of them are of 5 'mei', but there are also 2 'mei' and 10 'mei' with different graphics at the centre of the 'stamps'. Just to make things clear: The reading direction of the central row is from right to left,「X枚」. Now I want to make it clear when I talked about the orientation of the characters in my previous post. Please take a look at this image: The green arrows point from the top to the bottom of each character, with the triangular part indicating the bottom of the characher, and the empty end the top of the character. As you can see, 「花」is the only character that is printed straight. At its opposite sits 「印」that is 180 degree upside down. The characters at the 4 corners are bent by about 45 degree, each following a different arrow that is rotating. I hope this makes it clear why I think the characters at the outer edges of the 'stamp' should be read in a circular fashion; otherwise it doesn't make much sense to rotate the characters this way. The question is whether the reading direction should be clock-wise or counter-clockwise, and from which character to start. I know it sounds really weird to see 'flower shop' on something akin to a stamp, but I can only make most of the sense out of「手花店 藝印員」in this order, which is also what the Chinese auction site wrote. Now let me analyse the terms used in the Chinese auction listings:「解放区」「印纸」「手花店艺印员」「伍枚」[...] The 4th term is the central row of the stamp, which you all know means 'X mei' by now. The 3rd term forms the outer edge of the stamp, whose meaning is left to be guessed. The first term「解放区」is used by supporters of the Communist Party to mean the area that was held by them; literally it means 'liberated region'. What I find most curious is「印纸」-- this is actually the term used in (today's) Japanese to mean revenue stamps; the Chinese term for revenue stamp is written as「印花税票」. But「印纸」might have been an old Chinese term that the Japanese later borrowed, or an insider's terminology within the collecotrs' circle. I can't tell since I didn't find any pertinent information. Anyways, this item appears to belong to the first half of 20th century in what is today's People's Republic of China. It's a very confusing period of history that most native Chinese language speakers don't even get it 'right' (as historically neutral as possible).
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khj
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Post by khj on Jun 8, 2023 21:41:55 GMT
I saw it in an auction catalog of a major collection from a few years back, sometime last decade. I know the time frame was probably around 2016-2018, as it was not long after I had logged my previous laptop in service.
There's only like a dozen or 2 notable special auctions of major Asian collections during that time period. Let me look through my digital archive later to see if I downloaded a digital copy.
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khj
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Post by khj on Jun 8, 2023 21:43:51 GMT
OK, I just looked through in detail the link provided by daniel. I believe that is in fact the item that I had seen, as I do recall it was a pair. I see the auction date listed is also 2017. So let look through my digital 2017 auction catalogs.
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Post by daniel on Jun 8, 2023 23:05:40 GMT
Linda , I cannot fault your translation, I can neither speak nor read Chinese. However, I would suggest that your translations are literal and that the listing to which I linked was contextual. Yes, we are still talking about "Liberation" but from the 1930s rather than the 1940s. From Wikipedia: Mao Zedong, later Chairman Mao, declared the Chinese Soviet Republic on the 7th November 1931 in the early stages of the Chinese Civil War. The CSR's government was located in its largest component territory, the Jiangxi–Fujian Soviet. On 7 November 1931 (the anniversary of the 1917 Russian October Revolution) a National Soviet People's Delegates Conference was held in Ruijin, Jiangxi province. Ruijin was the national capital, and the Republic had received assistance from the Soviet Union to host the gathering. The Chinese Soviet Republic was born, although most of China was still controlled by the National Government of the Republic of China; an opening ceremony was held for the new country, and Mao Zedong and other communists attended the military parade. Because the CSR had its own national bank, printed its own money and collected its own taxes.Of course it was overthrown by 1937. But, note that last sentence. It isn't a big leap to interpret "Hand flower shop art printer" to mean handicraft. So, I believe that khj is correct. Daniel
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khj
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Post by khj on Jun 8, 2023 23:10:50 GMT
OK, found it, Lot #2006. A correction to my earlier statement. The InterAsia Auction was a 4-day auction including several collections in the morning sessions. This item was actually in the 5Dec2017 afternoon session (not part of the morning special collections) entitled "The Stamps and Postal History of The People's Republic of China and Liberated Areas". Thanks again to daniel for that link, it saved me a lot of searching time. I was able to go directly to the correct auction catalog.
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khj
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Post by khj on Jun 8, 2023 23:18:03 GMT
I did also look up the realization amount as HK$2300. But what I've learned over the years is that is an "accounting" ledger. That doesn't mean it even sold -- sometimes that is simply one increment above the highest bid that didn't meet the reserve. Auctions houses that reveal the bidding history, you can tell if it was a real bid or a book bid. Then you have to call to find out if the book bid was a mail-in bid or a reserve bid.
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Linda
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Post by Linda on Jun 9, 2023 0:12:37 GMT
Hey daniel , I apologise if my previous textual analysis sounds like I meant to contradict khj -- I don't mean that. I was merely reporting to the vast majority of forum members who don't read Chinese language my findings on the Chinese market; I don't mean to judge whether these two pieces of information were correct or not. The first listing I quoted calls the piece「苏區红军票」, while the second labels it with「解放区」. The first points to the Soviet, while the second can encompass a wider interpretation. I didn't mean to evaluate the exact time frame when and what for this 'stamp' was issued -- which 'liberation period' it was, it's not in my interest. (Obviously, I am more into the textual / graphic design, printing quality, etc, of a stamp, rather than its history of making.) In fact, I think my second finding seems to conform to your theory that this piece is 'from the 1930s rather than the 1940s'. Now I am curious about the realisation amount. From the second Chinese listing, this piece (take the 'fine' ones, 上品) was sold between ¥ 18.00 to ¥ 308.00 (Chinese Yuan, I suppose). How does it raise to HK$2300?
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JeffS
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Post by JeffS on Jun 9, 2023 0:26:37 GMT
My compliments to those who participated in this adventure!
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khj
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Post by khj on Jun 9, 2023 8:08:12 GMT
Linda, I applaud your foray into the Chinese language! It's not easy to be able to decipher/type Chinese characters. As you are already aware, combining Chinese characters can sometimes result in drastic differences in meaning. Also, less known, is that most Chinese characters actually have multiple meanings that are not only distinctly different, but not obviously related. Sort of the like the English word "conduct", which as a verb can mean different things in science and music, and another meaning when used as a noun (even pronounced differently!). For example, the word 花 which commonly used is flower, actually has at least 6 different meanings that I can think of. Google translate, if you scroll down, will list an addition 2-3 common meanings, but not all. In looking at the stamp, perhaps a different perspective might help. Instead of trying to combine all the characters, perhaps not all the characters were meant to be combined. The middle 2 characters (denomination) were clearly meant to be combined. However, perhaps the way the other characters are oriented in a circular pattern, was intended to be decorative more than phrasing. In that case, the 6 characters would be a descriptive list, rather than a phrase. In which case, it would cover individuals and stores that provide hand, floral, art, printing... (i.e., artisans or handicrafts). I don't know the specific background behind that stamp, so that would still just be my "guess".
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khj
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Post by khj on Jun 9, 2023 8:43:18 GMT
Now I am curious about the realisation amount. From the second Chinese listing, this piece (take the 'fine' ones, 上品) was sold between ¥ 18.00 to ¥ 308.00 (Chinese Yuan, I suppose). How does it raise to HK$2300? Which is the reason I avoid the major auction houses (my personal approach, not a criticism of them). The value of a collectible is 90+% marketing. The major auction houses are usually the only place to acquire very rare stamps. You will be competing against people with deep pockets. All these decades, I've only won 2 lots from a major auction house (and I had to return one of them). Everything else, I get outbid by several bundles. A lot of people assume that everything from a major auction house must be valuable. In reality, if you look at the prices realized, you will find that in many auctions, the majority of the lots get sold below the estimate. Remember the Scott catalogs of the 1980s, where a hefty % off Scott the the "norm" for even the major dealers? When an auction house publishes a high estimate, there will be those who assume the estimate is accurate/reasonable. This will depend a lot on which auction house. Some are fairly accurate, as in ±50%. Some are "wishful thinking" and you should pretty much assume ½ or ¼ of estimate except for the truly rare items. The only way to really know is to study that auction house for about a year before you really start bidding. Consider the very small sampling of lots shown in the auction catalog snippet above (in HK$). Lot 2006, est 3000-4000, realized 2300 Lot 2005, est 25000-30000, realized 6325 Lot 2004, est 15000-20000, did not sell (no reason given) Value is in the eye of the buyer, but can easily influenced by the seller if one does not do due diligence in researching the market. If you ask me, 2300 is overpay (that includes the 15% buyer commission). But if the buyer really feels it is worth that much, then so be it. Who am I to critique? I don't collect revenues (don't shoot me) and don't understand why some people pay so much for revenue stamps -- but as long as they are satisfied with their purchase... The other online auction house you linked, will have the same issues as the other online collectible marketplaces -- are they all genuine? Even genuine, does the seller realize if they have something valuable? There's really very little hype, so you often see a more typical buyer assessment of actual value. Which means you might get fleeced or you might have found a tremendous bargain. One note of caution, I don't have info on the print/varieties of that stamp, but it's pretty clear from the photos of the auctions of that 5-6 year span that some of those stamps are on different paper or used different ink. Maybe these are genuine varieties, I don't know. Also, if you are familiar with print/paper quality of that region/era, you sort of get a feel of what it should "look like". If it looks really fresh, it's probably a little "too fresh" to be genuine, especially local printings. If I could trouble drjoe, could you possible scan and post the backside of those 2 stamps?
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drjoe
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Post by drjoe on Jun 9, 2023 15:00:19 GMT
Images of the reverse and front w/o being in the dealers card as noted: The paper is very fragile and appears to be doubled as seen in the separation of one layer from another in the left stamp. Also there are fibers extending from the edges and when the stamps are held up to a light a vertically laid component is visualized. Unfortunately not able to illustrate with my imaging software. I've been amazed & thankful at the participation of TSF members that have contributed to this posting and in learning more about this item.
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khj
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Post by khj on Jun 9, 2023 15:59:17 GMT
drjoe, thank you for posting the backside scans! k
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drjoe
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Post by drjoe on Jun 9, 2023 17:52:49 GMT
This is an image of the vertically laid paper appearance of the stamp w/ light behind. Not sure if this post is going to attached to the thread already started but it's worth the try.
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drjoe
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Post by drjoe on Jun 9, 2023 17:53:50 GMT
Success in posting the image!
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Linda
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Ex-mathematician turned visual artist and touring cyclist to bike across Canada, Europe, Japan etc.
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What I collect: Mostly Canadian and European stamps about art / science / landscape
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Post by Linda on Jun 11, 2023 3:42:47 GMT
Linda , I applaud your foray into the Chinese language! It's not easy to be able to decipher/type Chinese characters. As you are already aware, combining Chinese characters can sometimes result in drastic differences in meaning. Also, less known, is that most Chinese characters actually have multiple meanings that are not only distinctly different, but not obviously related. Sort of the like the English word "conduct", which as a verb can mean different things in science and music, and another meaning when used as a noun (even pronounced differently!). For example, the word 花 which commonly used is flower, actually has at least 6 different meanings that I can think of. Google translate, if you scroll down, will list an addition 2-3 common meanings, but not all. In looking at the stamp, perhaps a different perspective might help. Instead of trying to combine all the characters, perhaps not all the characters were meant to be combined. The middle 2 characters (denomination) were clearly meant to be combined. However, perhaps the way the other characters are oriented in a circular pattern, was intended to be decorative more than phrasing. In that case, the 6 characters would be a descriptive list, rather than a phrase. In which case, it would cover individuals and stores that provide hand, floral, art, printing... (i.e., artisans or handicrafts). I don't know the specific background behind that stamp, so that would still just be my "guess". khj , I don't know if you knew that my mother tongue is Mandarin, and as a native Taiwanese, I belong to a small percentage of Chinese speakers who still write in Traditional Chinese -- deciphering Chinese characters is not a foray for me, but my legitimate business, LOL. Added to what you have pointed out, I can think of two other factors that may contribute to the difficulty in deciphering Chinese language 'of that period of time': (1) Foreign influence from the West results in a lot of coined words that are 'bizarre-looking' from today's point of view and no longer in common use after being replaced by 'more proper' translations. (2) In early 20th century began the most important reformation in the usage of Chinese language, called 白話文運動 (literally, 'the vernacular movement'). There is no English Wikipedia article about it, so I shall attempt to summarise it. First of all, you may know that there is not only one kind of Chinese language -- namely Mandarin -- but a ton of Chinese languages subdivided into different groups (let's not call them families to avoid dispute). Orally, these vernacular subgroups sound often then not very different, to the point that the speaker of Mandarin cannot understand the speaker of Cantonese, and this divergence has started at least 2-3 thousand years ago, when classical Chinese 'died out' -- i.e. ceased to be a spoken language, much like classical Latin. However, there was a widespread consensus maintained throughout the ancient time to write in classical Chinese, so that different vernaculars didn't 'look' that different in writing. This is why in ancient times, when two people (of the educated class) from different areas met, they often were able to communicate by writing classical Chinese, even though they couldn't understand what each other said. Fast forward to the beginning of the 20th century. Some intellectuals initiated a linguistic reformation by proposing to write everything in the vernacular(s) -- the slogan of the movement was 'Write as I Speak' (我手寫我口). Before that vernacular literature was only a small (and often pejorative) part of the classical corpus. If you read Chinese literature of this period, you would probably be baffled by the often strange syntax and unorthodox coinage of characters to make up new vocabularies; it's because writers at that time were just starting to experiment writing in Mandarin and other vernaculars. Well, at least that's what happens to me when I try to read something from that period of time; expressions can be so weird that it feels like wearing a cloth that doesn't fit. Having said all of these, my hypothesis is that the strange string of characters in the original post -- 手花店藝印員 in whatever order -- may be a or multiple terms derived from foreign translation, and/or a byproduct of the vernacular writing movement (after all, we don't know which vernacular it is supposed to be). It may refer to something that only one who specialises in the linguistic usage of a given area at that period of time can comprehend. (I admit that when the first auction listing I found points to the Soviet, I found this very tempting an explanation. It makes linguistic sense, to me at any rate, if the string of characters had foreign influence.) While we are on this topic, I just recalled an 2011 social media post where I talked about the Chinese naming of giant panda and red panda and the confusion/misuse arisen from a simple twist in reading direction. Let me quote myself here. (Background information: this is a reply to my friend who in his childhood was told that panda belonged to the biological family of raccoon.)
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