Andy Pastuszak
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Jun 22, 2023 3:33:38 GMT
I'm redoing my Ukraine album pages using the Font PT Serif.
After getting 1999-2000 done, I learned that PT Serif has two fonts available in the free version:
PT Serif and PT Serif Captions.
They designed PT Serif Captions for use in small point sizes that are captions, hence the name.
So, I'm trying it out and I'd like people's opinion. Which do you like better?
The only difference between the two is the font used in the description on the bottom.
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jun 22, 2023 5:10:29 GMT
Thanks for your post, Andy Pastuszak. Since you have requested opinions, I will offer mine. I like the version on the right better. The smaller font size and more compact rendering of the description at the bottom just look more proportionally correct to me--a better fit on the page, at least to my eye. That said, I think that both are nice. I just like the 2nd one a little bit better. Other opinions are welcome, of course!
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on Jun 22, 2023 5:33:03 GMT
The right hand version is neater.
Are you sure about the spelling. ? Do you mean “capitol” or should it not be “capital” ?
As in The Capitol is in Washington DC which is the capital city of USA
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Jerry B
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Post by Jerry B on Jun 22, 2023 6:41:38 GMT
Hi Andy
Both versions are nice but the one on the right is nicer. The smaller text looks "cleaner".
Jerry B
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Post by PostmasterGS on Jun 22, 2023 8:58:56 GMT
The one on the right, but increase the line spacing so that the descender letters don’t touch the ascenders from the line below. For example, the “p” of “Zaporozhian” and the “h” of “15th”, or the “y” of “Vyshnevetskyj” and the “f” in “of”.
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Andy Pastuszak
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Jun 22, 2023 12:25:03 GMT
The one on the right, but increase the line spacing so that the descender letters don’t touch the ascenders from the line below. For example, the “p” of “Zaporozhian” and the “h” of “15th”, or the “y” of “Vyshnevetskyj” and the “f” in “of”. Good catch on the line spacing.
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Andy Pastuszak
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Jun 22, 2023 12:25:45 GMT
The right hand version is neater. Are you sure about the spelling. ? Do you mean “capitol” or should it not be “capital” ? As in The Capitol is in Washington DC which is the capital city of USA ProWritingAid failed me. Sigh.…
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Andy Pastuszak
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Jun 22, 2023 12:45:25 GMT
Hi Andy Both versions are nice but the one on the right is nicer. The smaller text looks "cleaner". Jerry B That's how I feel also.
But it's always good to get another opinion, especially after the catalog number fiasco with my pages.
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BermudaSailor
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Post by BermudaSailor on Jun 22, 2023 13:18:54 GMT
Like many others, I like the one on the right. It looks cleaner and is easier to read for me.
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Mr. H
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Post by Mr. H on Jun 22, 2023 13:30:13 GMT
Looks like you have plenty of similar response, but I'll agree with the others and add my vote for the one on the right.
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TimG
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Post by TimG on Jun 22, 2023 13:52:55 GMT
I prefer the one on the right simply because it fits with the rest of the page. The one on the left stands out too much.
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Post by paul1 on Jun 22, 2023 14:20:13 GMT
sorry, I wish to be contentious - I vote for the left hand text as the easier to read, and the whole point about words is that they are there to be read. If you think that is too obvious to need mentioning, try reading some black letter Gothic text. I don't see any real obvious difference in style of font (type face) between the right and left - there many be miniscule differences, but to all intents and purposes both are the same, and it's the spacing between words that is greater on the left hand example, making the words appear clearer and easier to follow with the eye. Serifed type faces can be less easy on the eye than sans-serif - have a look at Gill sans - devised by that naughty incestuous stone cutter Eric Gill - used often on the London Underground place names I think. The lack of serifs can make for clean lines and a slightly deco appearance.
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Andy Pastuszak
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Jun 22, 2023 14:34:07 GMT
sorry, I wish to be contentious - I vote for the left hand text as the easier to read, and the whole point about words is that they are there to be read. If you think that is too obvious to need mentioning, try reading some black letter Gothic text. I don't see any real obvious difference in style of font (type face) between the right and left - there many be miniscule differences, but to all intents and purposes both are the same, and it's the spacing between words that is greater on the left hand example, making the words appear clearer and easier to follow with the eye. Serifed type faces can be less easy on the eye than sans-serif - have a look at Gill sans - devised by that naughty incestuous stone cutter Eric Gill - used often on the London Underground place names I think. The lack of serifs can make for clean lines and a slightly deco appearance. The font on the left is PT Serif Caption, and the font on the right is PT Serif. So, it's the same font.
I think part of the problem is that you're looking at it zoomed in. I'll scan the whole page and post it.
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Andy Pastuszak
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Jun 22, 2023 14:44:20 GMT
Ok, here is a full page scan with 4 boxes. Upper left is PS Serif Caption. Upper right is PS Serif. Lower left is PT Sans Caption. Lower right is PT Sans.
You need to look at it at a smaller size to see what's best.
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Linda
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Post by Linda on Jun 22, 2023 15:00:19 GMT
Andy Pastuszak -- I am known to have a special penchant for serif fonts -- sans-serif fonts don't look 'right' to my OCD brain. So I would say I like upper left best.
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Andy Pastuszak
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Jun 22, 2023 16:35:03 GMT
I want to knock the Caption font down by a point size and see what it looks like.
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renden
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Post by renden on Jun 22, 2023 16:48:54 GMT
Same choice as Linda ! (minus OCD ) René
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Post by paul1 on Jun 22, 2023 19:11:43 GMT
so what is the point size presently Andy - something between 8 and 12 perhaps ? I get the gist of what Linda is saying, that a type face perhaps needs serifs to look 'normal', although that may simply be our thoughts derived from habit. I still think that the original left hand piece of text appeared clearer for reading, but this is going to be something you will read and not us, so it needs to 'work' for you.
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angore
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Post by angore on Jun 22, 2023 20:12:23 GMT
I think right works better for short line lengths where it left and right justified. I
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Jun 22, 2023 20:29:28 GMT
Upper right looks 'cleanest" to my eyes, especially with full justification on short lines, nothing seems overly compressed more spread apart.
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Post by paul1 on Jun 22, 2023 21:11:21 GMT
.............. and what does Andy favour, we ask ourselves ?? ;-)
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Andy Pastuszak
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Jun 23, 2023 0:41:42 GMT
The point size I'm using is 7.
What do I favor? Looking at the screenshot I posted, I think the upper right looks the cleanest. But staring at the piece of paper in front of me, the upper-left is so much easier to read, and looks a little better to me. I need to print one out at 6 point using the Captions font and see what what looks like.
Back in the 90s, when I was in college studying biology, I had a strong obsession with typography and fonts. Drexel University forced me to buy a Macintosh computer, so I had the right tool at home to tinker with fonts in the late 80s/early 90s. All the articles I read back then said that serif fonts were easier to read, and easier on the eye, which is why magazines and books used serif fonts for body text.
The right font can also easily add ½ to ¾ if a page to a term paper, which was a big deal when writing term papers in college. :-)
Back then, I always thought that sans-serif fonts looked "modern" and serif fonts looked "old." As I've grown older, I've learned to appreciate a good serif font, as long as it's not Times or Times New Roman. I have never been a fan of that typeface.
I really like Palatino. But I've always been a fan of typefaces designed by Herman Zapf. I really want to try out Palatino Sans. But there is no open source clone of the typeface. I've tried to "find" a copy of it on the Internet with no luck. And I'm not willing to pay $270 for it only to find out I don't like the way it looks when I print it out.
It's been my experience that a font can look great "on-screen," and when you print it out, it doesn't look nearly as good. The opposite is also true. I've seen fonts in font books that look spectacular. I then buy them and I think what I see on the screen looks like garbage only to have the printout look as gorgeous as what I saw in the sample.
For a guy that has no professional experience in graphic arts, I am way too obsessed about this stuff.
I'm an IT professional now, and my coworkers laugh at me, because I spend 30 min looking at different mono-spaced fonts for my terminal and text editor to pick the one I like best.
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Andy Pastuszak
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Jun 23, 2023 1:30:26 GMT
Ok, another full page scan. Left is Pt Sans Caption 7, Middle is PT Sans Caption 6, Right is PT Sans 7.
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Jerry B
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Post by Jerry B on Jun 23, 2023 5:06:26 GMT
Hi Andy
Believe it or not raise the point size to 8. Sounds insignificant but it does maske a world of difference.
Jerry B
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Post by paul1 on Jun 23, 2023 7:34:25 GMT
Unfortunately, when posting here I'd suggest we don't see a given point size in real time. 6 point is small, and I'd suggest it's the smallest size used commercially, which not a problem if it's a personal choice and 'for your eyes only', and you have 20/20 vision. Jerry's thoughts about coming up to 8 will improve clarity, so too will using a sans face - serifs may remind us of Gutenberg and Caxton but it's arguable that small points with serifs may look less clean. I think most of the books we read are perhaps either 10 or 12 point. Of course if it's a space saving exercise then condensed faces can reduce the amount of sideways capacity, but they have a tendency to look a bit too compressed, likewise with bold faces looking too heavy. Have to say I've never heard of 7 point - perhaps it's a C21 invention - I thought they progressed in even Nos. only - at least I think that's the case with loose type. In the above examples, the inclusion of non-English language words tends to slow down the brain's ability to read fluently without pause, so again I'm going to be a stick-in-the-mud and plump for those examples with slightly wider word spacing which might offer a better visual word separation. Andy, just go for what you think is best, and ignore us;-);-)
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Post by jimwentzell on Jun 23, 2023 12:31:34 GMT
I like the right version better too. But for a slightly different reason: "Right Margin Justification" in automatic word processing should not be obvious. In the left's case it is, and somehow bothers me. Nearly fifty years ago I was the layout editor of our school paper, (yes we used Right Margin Justification, before computers even!) and it bugged me to no end (and still does) when the "computer" gives way too many extra spaces between words and letters, in order for the right margin to be flush. Just my pet peeve!
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angore
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Post by angore on Jun 24, 2023 11:17:47 GMT
I like sans serif for captions.
I assume a not very intelligent padding. I do not recall how they did it in "hot type" days but they did magic mechanically.
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Post by paul1 on Jun 24, 2023 13:21:03 GMT
I think compositors were a breed apart - and agree, I've seen construction of lines of text - to achieve justification on the right side - where lettering within words has been stretched such that the line of type looks visually very odd.
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Andy Pastuszak
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Jun 24, 2023 22:43:01 GMT
Herman Zapf came up with software called Hz-Program, which solved the right justification problem with computer typography.
He sold the patents to Adobe, which incorporated it into Adobe InDesign. The patents expired in 2010. But since the entire thing was proprietary, and Zapf has since passed away, I don't know if anyone knows enough about how it works these days to recreate it.
Zapf was an interesting guy. Not only was he a great type designer. But he was pioneer in digital typography.
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Post by dgdecker on Jun 25, 2023 2:58:17 GMT
Ok, here is a full page scan with 4 boxes. Upper left is PS Serif Caption. Upper right is PS Serif. Lower left is PT Sans Caption. Lower right is PT Sans.
You need to look at it at a smaller size to see what's best.
I prefer the two on the left. Not a question liking the font…just it just bot bigger and they’re fore easier to read. I would use this in my own pages because of the clarity of the text to my eyes. Ability to see without eye strain is my priority. David
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