sudbury12000
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Posts: 342
What I collect: Canada, Great Britain, Germany, World Pre 1925
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Post by sudbury12000 on May 17, 2024 12:14:25 GMT
As an effort to find these stamps used, I picked up these from a dealer in Berlin. I have noticed in his auction he does state that some stamps are of dubious authenticity. This was not mentioned in this auction and were sold as authentic. The cancel seems legitimate to me, but I will ask for help from the experts here. I am looking for obvious signs of fraud, if I am missing anything. ![](https://i.ibb.co/fqSnDcB/IMG-0001b.jpg)
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Post by PostmasterGS on May 17, 2024 13:15:21 GMT
I don't see anything obvious.
The cancels are in the correct date range, with the exception of the last one. It's 2 days after the listed end date (13 Nov 06) for this canceller, but there are lots of legitimate late uses of that canceller. It was kept around when the new one arrived, and was still used on occasion.
The only caveat might be that those stamps are worth more used than mint, which would provide an incentive for forgery. Can't tell for sure, though, without an expert examining the cancels in minute detail against known good/bad ones.
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sudbury12000
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Posts: 342
What I collect: Canada, Great Britain, Germany, World Pre 1925
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Post by sudbury12000 on May 17, 2024 17:48:46 GMT
I don't see anything obvious. The cancels are in the correct date range, with the exception of the last one. It's 2 days after the listed end date (13 Nov 06) for this canceller, but there are lots of legitimate late uses of that canceller. It was kept around when the new one arrived, and was still used on occasion. The only caveat might be that those stamps are worth more used than mint, which would provide an incentive for forgery. Can't tell for sure, though, without an expert examining the cancels in minute detail against known good/bad ones. Thank you for the information. Glad there is no obvious signs of fraud. Interesting on the use of the canceller. They look nice on my Togo page, now I have to get the low values complete!
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Hugh
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What I collect: Occupation Stamps and Postal History, Worldwide; Canada, the UK, France and Germany.
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Post by Hugh on May 17, 2024 20:27:00 GMT
Below is a copy of a page recently published by germanstamps.net. It has an image of the 'Togogebiet' cancel and some information about the dates. On the site, there are two other pages on the cancels used after 1906. You might find them of interest. Also, I have a cover from 1915 that allegedly uses this cancel. There are reported instances of this German cancel being used in the early days of the occupation, I'm no expert, by a long shot, but I think it is likely a forgery. First, it's rather a late date -- November 11, 1915, second the 'Togo Anglo-French Occupation' overprint on the Gold Coast stamp looks a bit 'off' to me and, third, the cancel is a bit too perfect - it looks good in my cancellation guage but the ink / impression seems very thick - certainly compared to the one on your stamp. But, damm, it's a nice looking cover - smile. ![](https://i.ibb.co/J3Bfgqf/Togo-Occupation-A.jpg) ![](https://i.ibb.co/pj0nZGv/Togo-Occupation-B.jpg) ![](https://i.ibb.co/7zG0PXJ/Togo-Occupation-C.jpg)
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rod222
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Posts: 10,681
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on May 18, 2024 1:38:19 GMT
HughForged Togo Postmarks TOGO, GERMAN Assahun: 12.10.13. Klein-Popo: 5/11 01. Kpandu: 10.9.11. Lome: 20.5.07. Noëpe: 7.11.12. Nuatjä: 23.12.09, Nuatyä 1/4 07. Porto Seguro: 5.2.07. Station Sansanne Mangu: 19 Jun 97. Tokpli: 4.12.09. link
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Hugh
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What I collect: Occupation Stamps and Postal History, Worldwide; Canada, the UK, France and Germany.
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Post by Hugh on May 18, 2024 2:07:55 GMT
Hugh Forged Togo Postmarks TOGO, GERMAN link Interesting. The date on my cancel / cover is not on that list. I’ll put some time into this tomorrow and do an update. Thanks.
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Post by gstamps on May 18, 2024 7:15:11 GMT
Hugh, it mentions the use of this cancellation (in a damaged form - I think the outer circle broken in the upper left) during the Allied Occupation: ![](https://i.ibb.co/VvjBTZL/S-L1.jpg) It does not correspond to the period of use and if you look at the outside of the letters in LOME you notice a series of small dots that make me think that a computer printer was used. ![](https://i.ibb.co/1sjDLPx/SL.jpg)
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Hugh
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What I collect: Occupation Stamps and Postal History, Worldwide; Canada, the UK, France and Germany.
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Post by Hugh on May 18, 2024 12:20:01 GMT
gstamps ... Excellent. What a great thing to discover this morning -- that you confirmed the issue overnight (overnignt for me, anyway). Sadly, what a waste of a good stamp, I still don't get why people do this. To prove they could? If it was done using a modern printer that's especially interesting. Also, if they had the philatelic knowledge to replicate the broken outer circle why not use a date that corresponded to the period the allies used this cancel? An inside joke? Or was it that they knew it would eventually be discovered and they would get 'credit' for their skill and knowledge, even if anonymously? I searched my files. I bought this in 2022 from a reputable UK dealer on ebay for $140 (GBP85). I was assembling material for a presentation I was doing and should have done a deeper dive into this item at the time. Luckily, the stamps I used had been expertized by BOTHE BPP (although they can be forged too, I suppose). Live and learn. O well, now I have the time to take my wife to breakfast and visit the local farmer's market - smile. It's going to be a beautiful day. FYI ... here are the pages dealing with the Togo Occupation in "War Stamps of the Allies: 1914 - 1920, published in 1920 by Douglas Armstrong and Charles Greenwood. It provides a lot of detail on the overprints. ![](https://i.ibb.co/jR1qnX8/War-Stamps-of-the-Allies-1914-1920-an-Historical-Record-by-D-B-Armstrong-1920.jpg)
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rod222
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on May 18, 2024 13:01:15 GMT
gstamps ... Excellent. What a great thing to discover this morning -- that you confirmed the issue overnight (overnignt for me, anyway). Sadly, what a waste of a good stamp, I still don't get why people do this. To prove they could? If it was done using a modern printer that's especially interesting. Also, if they had the philatelic knowledge to replicate the broken outer circle why not use a date that corresponded to the period the allies used this cancel? An inside joke? Or was it that they knew it would eventually be discovered and they would get 'credit' for their skill and knowledge, even if anonymously? Hugh Hugh, the Censor strike, seems to pass muster ? (dated circa 12 months apart) Unless the advertised cover is forged or your cover was forged in Lome PO ? ![](https://i.ibb.co/3v1B2Lb/passed-2.jpg) link![](https://i.ibb.co/fxJCb7C/lome-censor.jpg)
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Post by gstamps on May 18, 2024 15:23:27 GMT
Hugh , thanks for the interesting information. rod222 , the cancellation presented does not correspond to the one in my catalog. Edit: only the year/month/day appears. In the original cancellation device, the hours also appear. ![](https://i.ibb.co/tzgmxrq/LT.jpg) And in addition, it is mentioned that the cancellation device reached a private person who used it for forgeries. ![](https://i.ibb.co/dJ7SSzD/LT1.jpg)
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vikingeck
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What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on May 18, 2024 16:18:53 GMT
Just a caveat about the cancel of the large high value Hohenzollern stamps. I understand the stamps were supposed to get a double strike with the canceller because there was the possibility of doing a cut and shut job with two uncancelled portions which might be re used to defraud the post.
There is a suspicion that those with just a single cancel might be CTO by favour.
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Hugh
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What I collect: Occupation Stamps and Postal History, Worldwide; Canada, the UK, France and Germany.
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Post by Hugh on May 18, 2024 19:48:32 GMT
Just got back from the village. I see that rod222 and gstamps have giving this some more thought. The point about the censor strike is well taken, so I had another look at this cover. It's addressed to a company called Faudels. That's a real company. In 1914 it was in the business of selling German sewing machines - which they often rebranded. I can imagine someone in Lome, Togo needing to repair their sewing machine and eager to contact a company in London. Or, given the occupation, a local merchant needed a new supplier. Either way, it's a reasonable destination. ![](https://i.ibb.co/9vGmtgb/Image.jpg) The censor strike seems real and similar to at least one other contemporary cover. I used a microscope to have another look at the cancel. I'm no expert, but it doesn't look like it was printed - especially by a modern computer printer. The third image is 1,000x. It looks like the ink was applied by a hand stamp to me. ![](https://i.ibb.co/87qQmnW/Screenshot-2024-05-18-at-1-13-04-PM.jpg) ![](https://i.ibb.co/1mdH60d/Screenshot-2024-05-18-at-1-19-32-PM.jpg) ![](https://i.ibb.co/smxtcWh/Photo-on-2024-05-18-at-1-36-PM.jpg) But, all that says is that if it was forged, the forger used a hand stamp. As I understand it, in 1914 and 1915, two hand stamps were in use. The Togogebiet one, with one horizontal line, was used first -- in August of 1914. According to Armstrong's book, the Germans tried to hid their supply of stamps, etc. when they withdrew from Lome. In which case, I suppose this cancel was the first one they found. Then, on October 1, 1914, they used another cancel -- LOME TOGO -- which had two horizontal lines. According to Michel they stopped using the first one (Togogeiet) in May of 1915. The second cancel was used until at least 1925. Here is another occupation stamp from my collection - with an SON cancel dated October 14, 1914. It was struck using the second cancel on a 5Pf German stamp. It has the short-lived 'One penny' overprint as well as the occupation overprint. Assuming it's not a forgery as well (?!) the date confirms that both cancels were in use at the same time. ![](https://i.ibb.co/Hpb9YVc/Togo-Occupation-Cancels-1.jpg) Thanks to gstamps we know that this second handstamp was known to have been used by a third party -- "The stamp fell into private hands and was (is) used for counterfeiting purposes". One wonders if that also happened to the first hand cancel? As for the stamp on the cover. I had thought the overprint was a bit off. But, comparing it with another, it may well be genuine. ![](https://i.ibb.co/55k3yYW/Togo-Occupation-Cancels-2.jpg) So, in conclusion, IF we have a real cover, a real censor mark, a real occupation stamp ... and a cancellation that was struck by a real hand stamp BUT outside the known official use period we have a forgery that is almost impossible to distinguish from the real thing (except for the date). Maybe what was happening, to Rod's point, is a postal worker in Lome was taking advantage of the intense interest in Togo stamps in the early days of the war. In other words, using the real cancel stamp on the side (not just this one but the second cancel as well?). Heck, it may be that he was actually sending some of the mail (like a letter to a Sewing Machine company - smile) and pocketing the money. Offical fraud came first, collector fraud came after. Who knows. All I know for sure is that from now on I plan to assume any Togo occupation stamps and covers are suspect until proven otherwise.
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rod222
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on May 18, 2024 20:40:39 GMT
HughCrikey Hugh! for me, I couldn't resist this, I'd have to send away for a certificate It's such a juicy curiosity, even the paper of the envelope, and the script of the address is entirely in character. Everything else points to a forgery, it must be a dangerous one, The forger must have known his stuff, yet the dated CDS is then, out of character ! What a conundrum.
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Post by PostmasterGS on May 18, 2024 20:52:13 GMT
the cancellation presented does not correspond to the one in my catalog. Edit: only the year/month/day appears. In the original cancellation device, the hours also appear. That canceller was only ever used without the hours. When the cancellers were created in Germany, the company manufacturing them, Gleichmann, made a sample cancel in their books. These samples are often used even today in catalogs of these cancels. That's why many examples given in the German cancel catalogs have dates that pre-date the period of actual usage. On occasion, however, the canceller was changed in the period between Gleichmann recording the sample in their books and the canceller coming into use. This canceller is an example of that. When Gleichmann made its sample cancel, there was a hour. By the time it came into use, the canceller had been modified to remove the hours.
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Post by gstamps on May 19, 2024 7:34:25 GMT
PostmasterGS, thanks for these clarifications. I was confused by the lack of hours and the change of date order - day/month/year instead of year/month/day. We always have something to learn. Hugh, with the new images it is obvious that the cancellation is not on the computer printer. I found a fake cancellation Lome - Togogebiet on "stampsx.com": ![](https://i.ibb.co/tBCJZZx/T5.jpg) The only reason in favor of forgery remains the date of use (the last known use in May 1915), especially since already on October 10, 1915, an allied cancellation device appeared (see also censorship) or the one displayed by rod222. ![](https://i.ibb.co/pW4wh3T/T3a.jpg)
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Post by PostmasterGS on May 19, 2024 12:45:41 GMT
There are aspects of Hugh's cover that make me thing it's at least partly genuine. The address isn't obviously philatelic. The censor mark is correct. The cancel has damage in the correct spot. The primary issue is the late usage. It could be that the canceller was used later than the ArGe is aware of (the catalog is not 100% accurate in all areas, as I myself have found on occasion). Or... if you look closely the day/month appear to have struck twice. It could just be a double impression of the canceller, but the day/month are the only parts that appear to be double struck. It's as if someone had a valid cancel, then decided to "fix" a weak date. The day appears to be the same (11), but the month looks like it might have been something other than "11".
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Hugh
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What I collect: Occupation Stamps and Postal History, Worldwide; Canada, the UK, France and Germany.
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Post by Hugh on May 19, 2024 13:17:16 GMT
There are aspects of Hugh 's cover that make me thing it's at least partly genuine. The address isn't obviously philatelic. The censor mark is correct. The cancel has damage in the correct spot. The primary issue is the late usage. It could be that the canceller was used later than the ArGe is aware of (the catalog is not 100% accurate in all areas, as I myself have found on occasion). Or... if you look closely the day/month appear to have struck twice. It could just be a double impression of the canceller, but the day/month are the only parts that appear to be double struck. It's as if someone had a valid cancel, then decided to "fix" a weak date. The day appears to be the same (11), but the month looks like it might have been something other than "11". Interesting suggestion. Here's a close up of the date. ![](https://i.ibb.co/JjzRL0K/Photo-on-2024-05-19-at-9-07-AM.jpg)
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