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Post by almazstamps on Nov 11, 2024 13:30:46 GMT
I have some early Saudi Arabia "L" numbers with what appears to be tarnished gold overprint. The overprint looks brownish black, but under magnification you can see gold particles shinning through dark color. Also some of the numbers exist only with gold ovpt, there is no black ovpt listed for these numbers, so the overprint did start out as gold.
Is there a way to remove this tarnish? I never encountered this problem in my 45 year experience with stamps, but I remember reading long time ago about a method to remove the tarnish. Don't remember what it was.
If there is a section in this forum that's more fitting for this thread, please let me know. I am somewhat confused by so many sections and subsections here.
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rod222
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Posts: 11,047
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Nov 11, 2024 23:35:06 GMT
I have some early Saudi Arabia "L" numbers with what appears to be tarnished gold overprint. The overprint looks brownish black, but under magnification you can see gold particles shinning through dark color. Also some of the numbers exist only with gold ovpt, there is no black ovpt listed for these numbers, so the overprint did start out as gold. Is there a way to remove this tarnish? I never encountered this problem in my 45 year experience with stamps, but I remember reading long time ago about a method to remove the tarnish. Don't remember what it was. If there is a section in this forum that's more fitting for this thread, please let me know. I am somewhat confused by so many sections and subsections here. Personal opinion, Pure Gold does not tarnish, ergo, the ink may have added alloys, that tarnish. Next comes the old chestnut "Restoration versus Conservation" Whatever you attempt, no matter how careful, will damage the stamp Leave well enough alone, it was meant to tarnish, it is factual. Beats me, why any stamp issuer, issues postage stamps with silver or gold ingredients, they fail miserably, one can hardly read what was printed.
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Post by almazstamps on Nov 12, 2024 13:43:42 GMT
I was referring to the color of the stamp as described in Scott, not actual make up of the ink. I forgot to mention these are all in used condition without gum, which may have contributed to tarnish through contact with water. If there is a way to get rid of tarnish without damaging the stamps, I don't see it any different than washing used stamps to clean up what can be cleaned up. Most collectors wouldn't have a problem with it.
From what I remember tarnish removal involved holding the stamp over some kind of vapor.
Do you have a link to any article that describes this tarnishing as normal? I am planning to sell these stamps and this would help if I leave it as is.
BTW, I am a dealer.
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salentin
Member
collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 6,506
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Post by salentin on Nov 12, 2024 13:53:20 GMT
Just out of curiosity: What exactly are the stamps in question ?
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rod222
Member
Posts: 11,047
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Nov 12, 2024 21:17:08 GMT
Just out of curiosity: What exactly are the stamps in question ? Hi Kingdom of the Hejaz Stamps of 1917-1918 Opt in Black red or Brown 1921 Scott L14 - L19 All values except L15 exist with Gold Opt
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rod222
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Posts: 11,047
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Nov 12, 2024 21:43:00 GMT
almazstamps Most collectors wouldn't have a problem with it.
That's a very broad statement, if it be true, then "Tally Ho" you are free to do whatever you like, they are your stamps I just gave my personal opinion, you have to respect that, just take from it what you will, or disregard it entirely. My approach has always been to "good philatelic husbandry" and my reply mirrors that. I have no information on "tarnish" or how to remove it. What I do have is evidence in my country, of the "Ne'er do wells" the cheats and the forgers that meddle with gold (colour) print, to seduce others to relieve them of their money It illustrates how the print can be interfered with, chemically. (as one member here wisely advised, there may be one atom of gold in the ink" Good Luck! and thanks for your transparency (Dealer)
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rod222
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Posts: 11,047
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Nov 12, 2024 22:10:10 GMT
The ethics of cleaning Postage Stamps, (and coins)
Tarnish (Oxidation) ....a consideration
The France 2008 "Marianne" postage stamp (5 Euros) 99.9% pure silver A real pressure sensitive postage stamp
It comes on a collectible card, which is sealed to prevent oxidation (Tarnish)
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salentin
Member
collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 6,506
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Post by salentin on Nov 13, 2024 9:45:27 GMT
Thank you rod222,I did not think of Hejaz ! As I´m "Michel-based" and in my edition (1994) Hejaz and Saudi Arabia are listed in alphabetic order in two different volumes,I was perplexed. Not my area of interest,I found two footnotes about those stamps (Michel nos.40-6,Sc.nos.L42-8 and some later ones):
Scott: "The overprint was typographed in black and dusted with "gold" powder while wet."
Michel: The (gold-) overprint can be easily rubbed off and then appears to be black.
Conclusion: if the (gold-) powder is rubbed off,it is gone for good and no remedy will restore the golden overprint. So it is not a question of colour-corrosion,but of a mechanical reason.
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rod222
Member
Posts: 11,047
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Nov 13, 2024 10:52:10 GMT
Thank you rod222,I did not think of Hejaz ! As I´m "Michel-based" and in my edition (1994) Hejaz and Saudi Arabia are listed in alphabetic order in two different volumes,I was perplexed. Not my area of interest,I found two footnotes about those stamps (Michel nos.40-6,Sc.nos.L42-8 and some later ones):
Scott: "The overprint was typographed in black and dusted with "gold" powder while wet."
Michel: The (gold-) overprint can be easily rubbed off and then appears to be black.
Conclusion: if the (gold-) powder is rubbed off,it is gone for good and no remedy will restore the golden overprint. So it is not a question of colour-corrosion,but of a mechanical reason.
Brilliant ! Thank you. salentinInfo saved. I share your mixed order, I have always had Hejaz separate, perhaps from my early Gibbons days? I have my Saudi Folder now named "see also Hejaz" It's so nice to have queries solved.
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Post by almazstamps on Nov 13, 2024 13:20:13 GMT
I found two footnotes about those stamps (Michel nos.40-6,Sc.nos.L42-8 and some later ones):
Scott: "The overprint was typographed in black and dusted with 'gold' powder while wet."
Michel: The (gold-) overprint can be easily rubbed off and then appears to be black.
Conclusion: if the (gold-) powder is rubbed off, it is gone for good and no remedy will restore the golden overprint. So, it is not a question of colour-corrosion, but of a mechanical reason. Thank you, Sir. This was very helpful. Somehow, I missed this footnote in Scott. It was below a different set. This answers all my questions.
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Post by almazstamps on Nov 13, 2024 14:36:51 GMT
almazstamps : Most collectors wouldn't have a problem with it.
That's a very broad statement, if it be true, then "Tally Ho." You are free to do whatever you like; they are your stamps. In defense of my statement and in the context it was made, most collectors will not have a problem with washing used stamps, that's how they come off paper, so do some stains, dirt and grime that was on them. I drew a parallel to removing tarnish from this overprint and stated I (not most collectors) consider it the same. Not a broad statement at all. Altering stamps to create varieties wasn't even in the realm of this discussion.
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Post by almazstamps on Nov 13, 2024 14:40:14 GMT
Just out of curiosity: What exactly are the stamps in question ? L108-L115 set, Scott numbers. Thanks again.
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Nov 13, 2024 16:44:29 GMT
Hi, Lenny ( almazstamps), and thanks for your post. Discoloration of stamps, or in your case overprints, can be due to different factors. There is a thread about discolored stamps here: thestampforum.boards.net/thread/5698/causes-stamps-discoloredOne of the commonly encountered causes of discoloration on stamps is sulfuretting, also called sulfurization (sometimes referred to as oxidation, but that is an incorrect term). Discoloration of stamps due to sulfuretting comes about due to exposure to sulfur in the air. Fortunately, the discoloration can generally be remedied by soaking the stamps for a few minutes in a 3% hydrogen peroxide solution. That treatment doesn't always work, but it often does, in my experience. The discoloration is caused by metal constituents in the ink reacting with sulfur in the air. In the case of your gold-colored overprints, I could imagine that although they likely don't contain any real gold, they may have some metal content in the ink, and it is that component that is giving rise to the discoloration. This is, of course, only a theory, and just my opinion. If you do decide to try to clean these stamps with peroxide, I would suggest trying a small test first on the least valuable of the stamps. You could use a cotton swab dipped in the peroxide to apply just a bit of it to the overprint and see if it appears to make any difference. If it seems OK, you could try soaking. TSF member Stan ( stainlessb) is very knowledgeable about peroxide soaking, and a study that he conducted generally showed that it was safe to soak classic era stamps up to 10 minutes in 3% peroxide. That said, my recommendation would be that if the process seems to help, I would soak the stamps one at a time, keeping a close eye on each stamp as it is soaking, and as soon as the discoloration is removed, the soaking should be stopped. Just my opinion, and of course, others are welcome to agree or disagree. Hope this may help.
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stainlessb
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qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
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What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Nov 13, 2024 19:35:58 GMT
Hi Lenny
Most stamps do not appear to suffer from soaking in peroxide. I use 3# as that is what is readily available here. I do know of folks using up to 12%.
cold water (and peroxide) seem to cause less 'disturbance' on stamps than hot water, and while some stamps tolerate hot (140ºF) water and does decrease time to remove hinges and paper, any stamp(s) with figitive inks, or printed on chalky paper should be addr5essed with some caution. If the stamp is used and already free of hinges, paper (and gum), one can assume it has been previously soaked. I have found that some of the fugitive ink stamps can exhibit some additional degradation.
As @beryllium_guy noted- if there's any doubt, select the least expensive (one with an obvious flaw) is always a good guinea pig to test.
disclaimer- I do not collect any of the middle eastern countries, so I have no direct knowledge of paper or inks used.
Cheers Stan
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Post by almazstamps on Nov 13, 2024 23:21:35 GMT
Big thanks to Berrylium Guy and Stan. Very informative. I think that's what I read long time ago but couldn't remember. I don't think this is the case with my Saudi Stamps, but I do occasionally encounter sulfur caused discoloration, although rarely.
I have a method of washing stamps with fugitive inks. I carefully float the stamp on water surface, making sure it's not fully immersed and doesn't curl. If the water is at room temperature the stamp will not curl. Nothing is guaranteed 100%, but it protects such inked stamps and allows removal of gum remnants.
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Nov 14, 2024 1:06:56 GMT
Thanks for your kind response, Lenny ( almazstamps). I hope the info about peroxide treatment may help you on some other occasion. Apologies to Werner ( salentin), as I had failed to read your post before making mine (shame on me!). Your explanation makes perfect sense, so thank you for sharing it with all of us, and sorry again for my failure to see it prior to posting. This is more proof, if it were needed, that it pays to read threads thoroughly before making new posts.
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