therealwesty
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Sorting my Small Queens
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Post by therealwesty on Dec 4, 2013 17:22:53 GMT
I am a relatively new collector and by no means consider myself an expert. When I first started acquiring Small Queen stamps the process of sorting and identifying them seemed almost intimidating, especially the 3-cent. The subtle nuances of colour shade and paper types seemed almost impossible to decipher for a new collector. I am offering a beginners guide, that is; a guide written by a beginner to describe the process I used to start making sense of my 3-cent Small Queen accumulation.
The 3-cent Small Queen comes in two major Scott/Unitrade numbers. Here's the breakdown in very broad strokes. #37 encompasses the first Ottawa and Montreal printings, basically 1870 to 1888. #41 encompasses the Montreal Gazette printings and the second Ottawa printings, basically 1888-1897. My aim was to positively identify my #37/41 stamps for placement in my alblum.
Step 1 - Forget the colour and paper varieties and stick to something concrete; measure the perforations. Though perf'ing stamps can be a little tricky, if you can get a good perf measurement you will have an objective way to start sorting your accumulation. Upon perf'ing your stamps you should end up with 5 basic piles. Keep in mind that Small Queens may not exactly line up with these measurements, but try to find the closest match for each stamp. -12 (or just under 11.75-11.9) -11.5 x 11.75 -11.5x12 -11.75x12 -12x12.25 There is a rare 12.5 all around, #37d (copper or Indian red) but these are pretty hard to find. If you find one, that's awesome, send it off to be certified!
First the easy ones; Perf 11.5 x 11.75, 11.5x12 and 11.75x12 are from the early Montreal period. These are most likely #37. Perf 12x12.25 are likely printed at the Montreal Gazette, or could be from the second Ottawa these are most likely #41.
Perf 12 all around could be from the first Ottawa or second Ottawa so these will require further examination.
Step 2 - The perf 12 stamps will require a little closer examination. Those measuring just under perf 12, so 11.75-11.9 are most likely from the first Ottawa period. This can be verified by checking the grain of the paper weave. Boil the kettle and place the stamp in the jet of steam, watch and see which way the paper curls. If the top/bottom of the stamp curl up/down this indicates a horizontal weave, if the sides curl up/down the paper is of verticle weave. Perf 12 (or 11.75-11.9) and horizontal weave is likely from the first Ottawa printing, so #37. Perf 12 and a vertical weave is likely from the second Ottawa printing, so #41.
Step 3 - Sit back and look at the colours. In my observation #37 tends to be duller in colour and appear a bit more red. #41 appear bright and has a strong orange or vermillion shade. If your perf and paper weave assessment follows true to this colour trend I think you can be pretty confident you have separated your 37s and 41s.
One Final Check - Have a look at the cancellations on any used stamps. If you assume a stamp was used pretty close to its printing date this can help verify your sorting. Remember though, a stamp may have been used later than when it was printed. So a late cancel date may not totally exclude a stamp from an earlier printing period. Again #37 were printing 1870-1888, #41 typically printed 1888-1890.
Hope this helps. Again, this is a guide to how a beginner started to make sense of an accumulation of 3-cent Small Queens and is by no means a perfect or definitive guide. Any corrections, additions, or further observations are absolutely welcome.
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firstfrog2013
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Dec 4, 2013 21:11:32 GMT
I'm going to attempt to print this will be handy guide to start sorting my small queens I know somewhere in them is the 37d I purchased early in my collecting years.I have them sorted currently by reds or oranges with only a few perfs identified namely the 11 1/2 by 12's i find the one cent queens interesting as well with the yellow hues,some almost transparent.
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Dec 4, 2013 23:36:13 GMT
Fabulous post, you are to be congratulated.
With perfs, after all these years, I learnt something from BC a few days ago, sometimes you can just discard the perf guage and count the perfs over 2 cm with a loupe It is possible to pick up fine differences, and for confirmation, match perfs to a known example.
These Queens to a casual onlooker, come as a "too hard basket" experience, your post helps immensely.
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BC
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Post by BC on Dec 5, 2013 3:01:23 GMT
...and then there are the dots. If there is a guide dot in the lower left corner, it is a 1st Ottawa printings, or early Montreal printing (up to early 1880's), regardless of perfs, papers or shades. However, the first column of 10 of the sheets have no dot.
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therealwesty
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Post by therealwesty on Dec 5, 2013 4:54:41 GMT
BC, thanks for adding the bit about the guide dots. Honestly I kind of forgot this important point... Because (incredibly) only one of the 3-cent stamps in my main collection have a guide dot. I will reiterate, the first column of 10 stamps in a sheet printed in the first Ottawa period will not have a guide dot. At 100 stamps per sheet, this means 10 percent will not have the dot. Therefore the presence of the dot is definitive evidence of a first Ottawa printing, so #37. The absence of the dot, however, does not necessarily mean it is not a first Ottawa printing #37.
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BC
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Post by BC on Dec 5, 2013 14:43:58 GMT
If your small queen stamp has a guide dot and is...
- Perf 11.9 x 11.9 (Kiusalas 66): 1st Ottawa printing, basic No. 37 (sub numbers for shades)
- Perf 12.5 x 12.5: 1st Ottawa printing, No. 37d (rare)
- Perf 11.6 x 11.9: Early Montreal printing up to 1884 or so No 36e (shades).
The uncertainty to me are stamps perf 12.1 x 12.1 (Kiusalas 65) with dots. Are they first Ottawa printings, or early Montreal printings? I found four of these (so far) in my "Value Village" batch. In my "Value Village" batch, I have so far found five perf 11.6 x 11.9. Three have dots, one has no dot, and one has a pulled perf where the dot would be. They are certainly early Montreal printings.
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therealwesty
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Post by therealwesty on Dec 6, 2013 2:44:16 GMT
I think we would round the 11.6x11.9 to 11.5x12, so I absolutely agree these are Montreal printings. The 12.1 all around with dots is very interesting. Shoemaker's list places the 12x12-Kiusalas 65 in the first Ottawa period so these would definitely fall in the 37 group.
Shoemaker's guide sort of goes contrary to my previous understanding of the perf. measurement. Shoemaker list the first Ottawa printings as kiusalas 65, which is roughly perf 12.1. Though other sources I have found indicate that the first Ottawa printing should be under perf. 12, often cited as 11.75-11.9. Can anybody offer any clarity on this situation?
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BC
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What I collect: Worldwide USED up to the 1960's, later years from countries that came into existence after then, like Anguilla, Tuvalu and Transnistria.
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Post by BC on Dec 7, 2013 16:27:21 GMT
I have picked out all the guide dot stamps in my hoard and also found a few covers. Here is what I have:
All stamps with guide dots:
1) Cover 1872 (Mar 30) Perf 11.9 (K66) 2) Cover 1872 (sep 30) Perf 11.9 (K66) 3) Cover 1873 (Mar 03) Perf 11.9 (K66) 4) Cover 1884 (Jan 03) Perf 12.1 (K65) 5) Cover 1886 (Feb 19) Perf 12.1 (K65)
6) 3 loose stamps (no visible date), Perf 11.6 x 11.9 (68 x 66)
7) 1 loose stamp 1885 (Nov) date, Perf 12.1 (K65)
8) 3 loose stamps (no visible date) Perf 11.9 (K66)
9) 11 loose stamps (no visible date) Perf 12.1 (K65)
Conclusion:
1) Guide dots were used on the initial printing in 1870, on up until the mid 1880's
2) First Ottawa printings, 1870-1873 were Perf 11.9 (K66)
3) Earliest Montreal printings, 1873-1886 were perf 11.6 x 11.9 (68 x 66)
4) Later Montreal printings, 1886-1889 were perf 12.1 x 12.1 (K65)
Does anyone have dated material to change this range?
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firstfrog2013
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Jul 29, 2014 14:46:38 GMT
So I have found 3 one cent stamps that measure 11,75 x 12.25 I don't see a reference for this perf.and not sure where to place them in order.Any help ??
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firstfrog2013
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Jul 30, 2014 23:04:22 GMT
If my eyes aren't totally shot this one measures 12.5x12.5
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firstfrog2013
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Jul 31, 2014 0:39:46 GMT
ez perf has told me it's 33 3/4 x 18 3/4 Don't think so.sorry ez perf you got it wrong.
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Jul 31, 2014 0:47:43 GMT
ez perf has told me it's 33 3/4 x 18 3/4 Don't think so.sorry ez perf you got it wrong. I was about to give you a hand, and ask for a scanned image, and I'd give it a go here, my new box, and Win7 has found a potential threat in EZperf and looped. I have emailed the webmaster. Take a breath and I'll try and get my end sorted, and perhaps you can email me the scan you are using and I'll see where you maybe having trouble. I am reasonably sure the software will be OK When I was testing I could get a reading with the most dreadful perforations, I don't recall having problems. PS: If you email me a scan, let me know what dpi you are using, should be 300 or 600 dpi
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firstfrog2013
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Jul 31, 2014 0:52:20 GMT
Hey, you know me I ain't no techie.But with a name like EZ PERF you might think it would be.I believe I'll stick with what Mom's taught me.just wish eyes were not so DA### old.
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Jul 31, 2014 0:53:05 GMT
Hey, you know me I ain't no techie.But with a name like EZ PERF you might think it would be.I believe I'll stick with what Mom's taught me.just wish eyes were not so DA### old. OK then.
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Jul 31, 2014 2:34:47 GMT
Ezperf Potential AV threat. For the record. Hi Rod, it's false positive. read the last part of this page on my site www.pcvu.com/EzPerf/ezpfaq.htmYou have to add an exception to your AV so that it does not delete Ezperf I gaurantee you there are no viruses in our software. Let m eknow if you have any questions
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firstfrog2013
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Jul 31, 2014 2:47:09 GMT
just for the record my old unitrade says $900 although mine is bit ratty.
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firstfrog2013
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Aug 3, 2014 16:48:09 GMT
Sadly I just realized every page of small queens needs re-doing.This was some of the earliest I did when I switched to quadrille pages and being a newbie with the format I mistakenly put three stamps per page.With small queens it would be most wise to limit that to one.To top it off the admirals are going to be another problem now as well.I remember when I started just filling the spaces on a printed page.There were maybe ten or twelve stamps on a page.Then I started adding used copies with the mint,no problem stick them under the other.Then perf,color,plate,varieties and here I am today.did I mention blocks?
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therealwesty
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Sorting my Small Queens
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Post by therealwesty on Aug 15, 2014 13:29:08 GMT
Frog, any news on the potential perf 12.5? Have you remeasured it, or compared it to any other stamps you know the perf measurement on? I would try to lay it over a stamp I know to be perf 12.25 to see how it compares. A 37d would be a great find, but perfs in that era can be a little inconsistent and deceiving. Also what kind of guage are you using?
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firstfrog2013
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Aug 15, 2014 18:36:05 GMT
I'm not sure of brand names but I measured twice with two different gauges and it's 12.5 all round on both gauges.I still haven't tackled my other queens I mounted some years ago.I did purchase a 37d years ago so some where in them the other hides as well.This one was labeled in an old stockbook I got,which led me to check it.Never know what treasures hide in old collections.
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Post by TinMan on Oct 17, 2014 9:37:21 GMT
Hey a dumb question maybe but is there any difference in an old metal U.S. Perforation gauge and and a new U.S. Perf gauge. I mean does Canada have it's own Perf gauge or is a perf gauge a perf gauge?
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therealwesty
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Post by therealwesty on Oct 17, 2014 11:32:09 GMT
A perf gauge should be pretty standard, though there are a number of different styles. I use a Unitrade brand guage which is put out by a Canadian company. It usually comes down to which style you are most comfortable. Measuring perfs is not as easy as it is made out to be. Though the task seems relatively simple, it is easy to make mistakes. It is something that gets easier with a bit of practice.
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firstfrog2013
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Oct 17, 2014 12:07:00 GMT
Most problems with early issues is many come to us with perf damage making the task that much harder.I also have several different perf gauges and believe it or not they are all the same.People quote brand names and swear by certain ones but they all have the same markings.Much debate about the Klaus gauge beware and read all reviews before getting involved with that.BNAP itself has debunked the gauge I'm on the fence.
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firstfrog2013
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Nov 26, 2014 18:52:32 GMT
I have been working on #37 page and measuring some loose stamps out of old collections.What should appear but another #37d poor centering but definitely 12.5 x 12.5 . Makes me glad to work on these stamps that have been hanging out seems like forever.
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firstfrog2013
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Nov 26, 2014 19:04:28 GMT
Sorry the stamp slipped a bit when scanning but here it be anyway.
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firstfrog2013
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Nov 26, 2014 19:15:04 GMT
2nd attempt.
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firstfrog2013
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Nov 26, 2014 20:46:54 GMT
2007 CV $900 for fine which this one ain't. I'll keep it anyway.
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Nov 26, 2014 21:59:08 GMT
Froggie, if you measure the design of the stamp, across in mm, I'll do a perf measurement by math.
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firstfrog2013
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Nov 27, 2014 10:19:30 GMT
Thanks Rod,but it would be hard to measure as perfs cut into design.As you can see from the scan it can be no other than the #37d. Just thought I'd dismiss any doubting Thomas lurking about by posting the scan.Not important to me to have the point whatever in this case.I put off working on this issue for years, but while I'm waiting for better loupe (yes still not satisfied)tackling a few.
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Nov 27, 2014 12:43:39 GMT
All you needed was to measure any 3c small queen, they should all be the same width. (or you could measure height, if the perf is the same all round) "Doubting Thomases" should be welcomed into Philately, they create debate and enquiry. Pure science should be able to reveal the truth in most circumstances.
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BC
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What I collect: Worldwide USED up to the 1960's, later years from countries that came into existence after then, like Anguilla, Tuvalu and Transnistria.
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Post by BC on Nov 27, 2014 14:26:33 GMT
Rod, the design portion of the Small Queen is 17mm wide by 21.5mm tall. I like perforation science too. Frog, after looking at your enlarged scan, I think your stamp is perf 12.0 or 12.25. It seems you have it shifted to the left on the gauge. That is a difficult task, scanning a stamp on a gauge. You practically have to hinge the stamp to the gauge first!
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