djcmh
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Post by djcmh on Feb 20, 2022 20:41:45 GMT
For everyone here who uses Colnect we are having a discussion regarding how variant listings are handled in the catalogue as the developers will soon be replacing the special variant system with a new minor variant system. Please take a moment to read the thread and offer your opinions on how variants should be presented in the Colnect catalogue.
The discussion is in the stamp catalogue sub forum at Colnect
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chrischross
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What I collect: France, French Africa, FSAT, French Polynesia
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Post by chrischross on Feb 20, 2022 22:54:40 GMT
For everyone here who uses Colnect we are having a discussion regarding how variant listings are handled in the catalogue as the developers will soon be replacing the special variant system with a new minor variant system. Please take a moment to read the thread and offer your opinions on how variants should be presented in the Colnect catalogue. The discussion is in the stamp catalogue sub forum at Colnect Direct link to the thread: The Question of Variants : Regular/Major vs Special/Minor
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angore
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What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Feb 21, 2022 11:05:05 GMT
I skimmed the discussion and seems overly complicated to associate a relationship beyond design unless Colnect wants to define collecting hierarchy like a catalogs do. If that is Colnect's ultimate goal, then it makes sense. But this means more discussion on what is the major and minor. Catalogs do not agree so lot of work.
From my perspective using Colnect as an identifier, I just want to know if there are other look alike stamps and then decide whether I want to collect.
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djcmh
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What I collect: Worldwide
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Post by djcmh on Feb 21, 2022 13:24:28 GMT
I skimmed the discussion and seems overly complicated to associate a relationship beyond design unless Colnect wants to define collecting hierarchy like a catalogs do. If that is Colnect's ultimate goal, then it makes sense. But this means more discussion on what is the major and minor. Catalogs do not agree so lot of work. From my perspective using Colnect as an identifier, I just want to know if there are other look alike stamps and then decide whether I want to collect. Basically the idea that I am proposing will be to have some degree of grouping of the variants. Some are proposing only having one stamp be visible (the most common variant) the having all variants be listed as minor variants within the listing - be it 5 variants or 50. Personally I think it would be more difficult for users to have to wade through a single list of say 50 variants rather than have them broken down into two or three groups. Here is a summary of how the various possible definitions of major variants will affect listings once the new minor variant system is activated by the developers : There will be a vote for all users of the stamps catalogue to vote on which definition of special/minor variant they want to use, so that we finally have a standard definitiion. Like I said my preference is to have any variant that is listed in all four of the "Big 4" catalogues be considered a major variant and always be fully visible when you click "show all variants" so that 1) all major listings are visible at all times to all users. I just do not like the idea of having a stamp that has full catalogue numbers in all four of the big 4 being hidden within the listing of a variant that is the only version of that design shown because it is the most common/lowest catalogue value.
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cjoprey
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What I collect: Belgium (predominantly), British Commonwealth (older ones), WW (whatever comes my way...)
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Post by cjoprey on Feb 21, 2022 17:35:02 GMT
Gene - that will be a pain for those of us who don't use one of the big 4. The Belgian COB catalog often has the main version of the stamp as a "minor" variant in the others, so a lot of the stamps I collect will be relegated to "minor" variants, which isn't actually the case. I kind of like the fact that right now I can search for a stamp, and as long as I have the "special variants" enabled, I can then see all variations. Now one thing I would LOVE, is to have a separation between standard and overprinted variants... Idealy for me (and I have been a web developer for over 30 years), what I would love to see is if I click on a stamp that has variants, that there is a collpased section to show the variants, and that I can filter that selection. For instance - let's look at the Heraldic Lion 20c stamp: colnect.com/en/stamps/list/variant/78349:This currently lists 3 paper variants (P1, P2 and P6), one colour variant, one official emission variant with the (B) logo on, and a bunch of precancelled variants. I would love to have a way to say, always for the current stamp: - show me the paper variants - show me the colour variants - show me the emission variants (like precancelled or official) And of course, others like: - show me the perforation variants - show me the release date variants
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angore
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What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Feb 21, 2022 20:46:04 GMT
I would like to see variants "stacked" and not exploded until you click on the image.
I have been working again with Vietnam and there are a number of imperf issues ONLY listed in Michel. For some reason, Colnect shows just the image for the Michel variant and not show the others. I saw occasions where when you click on the Michel it did not report it had variants in the "face value" view. If I go back to the year view (from the Michel variant), I usually see them.
edit: corrected spelling for stacked
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djcmh
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Post by djcmh on Feb 22, 2022 8:22:35 GMT
Gene - that will be a pain for those of us who don't use one of the big 4. The Belgian COB catalog often has the main version of the stamp as a "minor" variant in the others, so a lot of the stamps I collect will be relegated to "minor" variants, which isn't actually the case. I kind of like the fact that right now I can search for a stamp, and as long as I have the "special variants" enabled, I can then see all variations. Now one thing I would LOVE, is to have a separation between standard and overprinted variants... Idealy for me (and I have been a web developer for over 30 years), what I would love to see is if I click on a stamp that has variants, that there is a collpased section to show the variants, and that I can filter that selection. For instance - let's look at the Heraldic Lion 20c stamp: colnect.com/en/stamps/list/variant/78349:This currently lists 3 paper variants (P1, P2 and P6), one colour variant, one official emission variant with the (B) logo on, and a bunch of precancelled variants. I would love to have a way to say, always for the current stamp: - show me the paper variants - show me the colour variants - show me the emission variants (like precancelled or official) And of course, others like: - show me the perforation variants - show me the release date variants 1 - The special variants system is being replaced, the developers have already made that decisions (in fact Stamps is the only collectible that uses special variants, other collectibles use this new minor variant system already and the developers want to standardize the method of variant display among all collectibles, because the current system is considered "too complicated" for most novice to intermediate collectors and causes too much confusion (in their words) when trading is involved. So the old system is being replaced, the goal is to find a new system for organizing variants that will please both the novice/casual users and collectors with great experience in an area. 2 - Regarding catalogues, we have to use a "global' approach here since the vast majority of collectors do not use regional/specialized catalogues. So the only way to create a "base" listing is to either not have one at all and just have 1 stamp (the most common variant) be the visible on-screen representative for ALL variants (Something the novice collector or those who collect just by facial difference are pushing for, but would be a disaster for collectors above the beginner level) or have something displayed based on a consensus among the catalogues that DO provide global coverage. Unfortunately, specialized national/regional catalogues are always going to contain material that is outside the scope of the global big four. However, those items that are only listed in say COB should still be "visible" within the minor listings contained within the main listings 3) the plan for minor listings is to have the catalogue codes and the elements that make a variant a variant (what differs technically from the main stamp listing - perforation, paper, gum) always visible in the summary listing of minor variants. You would then click on the specific variant to get its full-page full detail listing. At present already when you are within a variant group if you click on a technical element that appears in blue (like perforation, year of issue) the variant group will reduce to show only those variants that meet that specific perforation/year criteria, and that is something that i think will be possible to carry over into the new system. In your example the following can already be clicked to reduce the variant group - release year, perforation, gum, emission type and color, so all the things you are looking for you already can do when in the middle of a variant group
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djcmh
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What I collect: Worldwide
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Post by djcmh on Feb 22, 2022 8:36:57 GMT
I would like to see variants "staked" and not exploded until you click on the image. I have been working again with Vietnam and there are a number of imperf issues ONLY listed in Michel. For some reason, Colnect shows just the image for the Michel variant and not show the others. I saw occasions where when you click on the Michel it did not report it had variants in the "face value" view. If I go back to the year view (from the Michel variant), I usually see them. That is the idea. The question is, would having a single stamp image that then lists 20/30/50/100 different variants be the best solution, or should there be some variants that are always visible? For your Vietnam example that isn't much of a question since the imperf is the only variant, and it's only listed in Michel so would not be considered a major variant in any of the proposals being made. But when you start working with items that have a lot more variants, the question becomes much more relevant. Here is an example I did with the 1p Machin traditional gum variant group : colnect.com/en/stamps/list/variant/2235In general, the bigger the variant group (and there are variant groups with over 100 listings), the less the idea of a single listing to house all variants is a good idea, at least in my mind, and why I am pushing for the "listed in all Big 4 catalogues" to be considered a major variant.
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angore
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What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Feb 22, 2022 11:06:51 GMT
I would agree that a major variant should be something recognized in the major GENERAL catalogs.
I also corrected the spelling of stacked (not staked).
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cjoprey
Member
Scanning stamps for my website...
Posts: 1,504
What I collect: Belgium (predominantly), British Commonwealth (older ones), WW (whatever comes my way...)
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Post by cjoprey on Feb 22, 2022 11:39:08 GMT
Thanks for the in-depth reply Gene djcmh! 1 - The special variants system is being replaced, the developers have already made that decisions (in fact Stamps is the only collectible that uses special variants, other collectibles use this new minor variant system already and the developers want to standardize the method of variant display among all collectibles, because the current system is considered "too complicated" for most novice to intermediate collectors and causes too much confusion (in their words) when trading is involved. So the old system is being replaced, the goal is to find a new system for organizing variants that will please both the novice/casual users and collectors with great experience in an area. I appreciate this - and I'm actually glad the special variant is being removed, as I just enabled it on day 1 as I wanted to see all variants regardless. 2 - Regarding catalogues, we have to use a "global' approach here since the vast majority of collectors do not use regional/specialized catalogues. So the only way to create a "base" listing is to either not have one at all and just have 1 stamp (the most common variant) be the visible on-screen representative for ALL variants (Something the novice collector or those who collect just by facial difference are pushing for, but would be a disaster for collectors above the beginner level) or have something displayed based on a consensus among the catalogues that DO provide global coverage. Unfortunately, specialized national/regional catalogues are always going to contain material that is outside the scope of the global big four. However, those items that are only listed in say COB should still be "visible" within the minor listings contained within the main listings I get that we need to have some way to state which the "main" stamp is, and I get that it should be the main "global" catalogs. I guess what I struggle with is why the developers can't enable it so I can set a catalog I prefer to be my "primary" resource, so I can list by that catalog's code by preference. Yes, I know I can filter to stamps that have a COB code, and search by it, but I can't sort by it, which is the biggest pain point for me. (BTW - I am fully aware that this remains a constant discussion point in the Colnect forums as well). 3) the plan for minor listings is to have the catalogue codes and the elements that make a variant a variant (what differs technically from the main stamp listing - perforation, paper, gum) always visible in the summary listing of minor variants. You would then click on the specific variant to get its full-page full detail listing. At present already when you are within a variant group if you click on a technical element that appears in blue (like perforation, year of issue) the variant group will reduce to show only those variants that meet that specific perforation/year criteria, and that is something that i think will be possible to carry over into the new system. In your example the following can already be clicked to reduce the variant group - release year, perforation, gum, emission type and color, so all the things you are looking for you already can do when in the middle of a variant group OK - I didn't know I could filter within a variant view by clicking on the links. Thanks for the hint! Now, if I could only have paper type as a filter so I can search by that as well, I would be VERY happy...
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djcmh
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What I collect: Worldwide
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Post by djcmh on Feb 23, 2022 7:25:08 GMT
Colnect users
A poll has been launched in the Colnect Stamp Catalogue forum to decide whether the current system of major variants should be retained when the new variant system is launched, or if it should be replaced with the proposed system of only listing the most common variant fully, and having all other variants, major and special, be listed as minor variants of the single most common variant listing when the new variant system is launched
I urge all Colnect users to please go to the Colnect Stamp Catalogue forum and cast their vote on this issue, as the result could lead to massive transformations in how listings are displayed in the catalogue.
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cjoprey
Member
Scanning stamps for my website...
Posts: 1,504
What I collect: Belgium (predominantly), British Commonwealth (older ones), WW (whatever comes my way...)
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Post by cjoprey on Feb 23, 2022 10:37:50 GMT
Thanks Gene djcmh ! I've voted and commented on the thread. For others who would like to vote, the poll is at this link: Colnect poll
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angore
Member
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What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Feb 23, 2022 10:59:15 GMT
As I understand the poll results so far, the vote totals trend toward no change.
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brightonpete
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Post by brightonpete on Feb 23, 2022 12:47:23 GMT
Just looking at the poll results, there are few votes! Too bad more users aren't more interested in how things work.
IF I had an account, I'd vote for collapsing the variants! Keep the page simple showing one stamp, click on that stamp to see all the variants. I think that would work better in my view. Just seems to make better sense.
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tobben63
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Stamp eat sleep repeat
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Post by tobben63 on Feb 23, 2022 13:10:14 GMT
I agree with brightonpete, but I have an account and voted for the change.
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djcmh
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Post by djcmh on Feb 23, 2022 13:54:57 GMT
I have had to close the poll, as the poll choices were based on a misunderstanding of what the proponents of a more basic listing wished - they do not want to completely remove regular variants altogether, just based regular variants on a few key factors that we as a community come up with rather than depend on any one catalogue, so I have re-opened the general discussion of the issue and will create a new poll in a few days after seeing if there are any more ideas. Now we are working with five options as to how to determine what will be a regular variant that will always be visible in full detail to all users of the catalogue and more may be added :
1) Any stamp variant that all four of the Big 4 Global Stamp catalogues (Michel, Yvert, Gibbons and Stamp Number) assigns a catalogue number to, and is not an obvious error caused during the production of an issue (like an inverted design).
2) Any stamp variant that at least three of the Big 4 Global stamp catalogues assigns a catalogue number to, and is not an obvious error caused during the production of an issue (like an inverted design).
3) Any stamp variant that is listed in at least two of the Big 4 Global Stamp Catalogues, and is not an obvious error caused during the production of an issue (like an inverted design).
4) The community should come up with its own set of conditions that will determine whether a variant should be considered a regular variant or a minor variant and not rely on any specific catalogue to determine whether a stamp is a regular or minor variant
5) There should only be one variant depicted permanently in the catalogue, and all other variant stamps, regardless of how listed in any catalogue, should be considered a minor variant, and regular variants should no longer exist in any form.
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djcmh
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Post by djcmh on Mar 1, 2022 11:05:45 GMT
A new poll has been set up in the Stamp Catalogue forum at Colnect so that the issue of variant display can be settled (may require 2 polls as there will be runoff if no option gets 50%+1)
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cjoprey
Member
Scanning stamps for my website...
Posts: 1,504
What I collect: Belgium (predominantly), British Commonwealth (older ones), WW (whatever comes my way...)
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Post by cjoprey on Mar 1, 2022 23:04:59 GMT
I have added some questions I would like to see answered before I fill in the poll. For others trying to find it - the poll is at this link.
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Post by biglavalamp on Mar 2, 2022 20:12:33 GMT
I use colnect and have given my vote it's useful and educational to see the variant's but I think as was stated they need to define what a variant is and be consistent in what they show.
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djcmh
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Post by djcmh on Apr 8, 2022 14:07:11 GMT
So after another month of discussion, a poll to finally settle the question of how variants should be handled in Colnect has been posted. If you use Colnect I urge you to participate in the polling as the decision will change how items are currently viewed on Colnect to a greater or lesser degree depending on which option wins link to Colnect poll on variants
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Post by biglavalamp on Apr 8, 2022 20:45:00 GMT
Thanks djcmh for highlighting this ... I voted.
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renden
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Post by renden on Apr 8, 2022 22:39:44 GMT
So after another month of discussion, a poll to finally settle the question of how variants should be handled in Colnect has been posted. If you use Colnect I urge you to participate in the polling as the decision will change how items are currently viewed on Colnect to a greater or lesser degree depending on which option wins link to Colnect poll on variantsVoted but 4 catalogues does not take into account my Specialized Canada - UNITRADE.......better than the other 4 René
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djcmh
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Post by djcmh on Apr 9, 2022 1:07:07 GMT
Voted but 4 catalogues does not take into account my Specialized Canada - UNITRADE.......better than the other 4 René Rene - we lists Unitrade under Stamp Number (since Unitrade is at base Stamp Number, with extra listings for specialized material) so it will by default be covered.
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renden
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Post by renden on Apr 9, 2022 22:17:45 GMT
Rene - we lists Unitrade under Stamp Number (since Unitrade is at base Stamp Number, with extra listings for specialized material) so it will by default be covered. These posts go so fast (newbies) and repetitions that I have not responded to you......another order on Colnect stopped with a red advice that I was over the limit this afternoon - I could not catch a `snap shot`of message since I decided to go through and tried to have the same message 1X - no message....to catch this time but I feel this is a nuisance for buyers on Colnect after 17 items ( )
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tobben63
Member
Stamp eat sleep repeat
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Post by tobben63 on Apr 10, 2022 2:47:13 GMT
Now I know what you mean renden This happend on Colnect if you work to fast. Colnect is a database ( I think) and need some time to process data. Therefore Colnect put up a warning if you go to fast. It has happened to me several times. You just have to slow down and then proceed what you are doing. Colnect could have avoided this if the purchase process had been made a bit smarter.
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angore
Member
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What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Apr 10, 2022 10:31:30 GMT
Speed limits on changes can be a security protocol. It gives time to raise a flag to admins on activity.
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djcmh
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Post by djcmh on Apr 11, 2022 4:56:28 GMT
Poll unfortunately closed again after members decided their opinion was not reflected in choices.
About ready to give up on trying to settle this issue, like trying to herd cats getting any sort of consensus even on what poll options should be.
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djcmh
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Post by djcmh on Apr 29, 2022 13:16:51 GMT
After having had so many problems in the past with polls, this time I had the developers themselves approve the poll that I have posted so that we can begin to get the variant question settled. As the community has been unable to date to come to an agreement as to what should make a variant be worthy of always being visible, developers decided the best way to start is to ask the community if they want just a simplified variant display - that is one where only one listing of a design is always visible in the catalogue and all other variants of the design, be they major or minor in the opinion of any stamp catalogue, would be listed simply as "variants" within the listing of the one visible stamp for that design. Link to the poll is below - if you use Colnect please do cast a vote because if this does pass, it will dramatically change how items are displayed in the catalogue compared to the present setup with regular and special variants. Should the Colnect Stamp Catalogue Adopt a Simplified Display for Variants in the New Variant System?
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renden
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Post by renden on Apr 29, 2022 15:22:40 GMT
djcmh I voted 3X..1st time right but I changed my vote to reflect a simpler approach, after which I changed again to see all variants René stainlessb
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stainlessb
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qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
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Post by stainlessb on Apr 29, 2022 16:05:54 GMT
I logged in and tried to vote, but it only seems to show me the reseults my vote would be for all variants to show, rather than toggling to see standard disclaimer= I am not affiliated in any way commercially with anybody anymore, but I am biased as I collect "variants"
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