rod222
Member
Posts: 9,933
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
|
Post by rod222 on Nov 18, 2015 0:54:40 GMT
|
|
Londonbus1
Moderator
Cinderella Stamp Club Member 3059
Posts: 4,884
What I collect: Cinderellas and some Ephemera from Great Britain, France and Israel plus a few beautiful bits from elsewhere !! Topical interests include Flags & Judaica, the latter with an emphasis on the Jewish National Fund.
|
Post by Londonbus1 on Sept 18, 2018 7:51:29 GMT
A few more from the British Mandated Territory of Tanganyika. Wmk: Multiple Script CA, Perf 14. Printed in Typography by De La Rue.
|
|
tobben63
Member
Stamp eat sleep repeat
Posts: 1,866
What I collect: I collect to much, world wide!
|
Post by tobben63 on Oct 15, 2022 7:45:38 GMT
Hand written date King George V Issues (1927-31) Michel TZ-TN 85 Scott TZ-TN 32 Yvert et Tellier TZ-TN 28 Stanley Gibbons GB-TN 96
|
|
philatelia
Member
Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
Posts: 3,416
What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
|
Post by philatelia on Oct 15, 2022 10:19:42 GMT
tobben63 - I was stunned when I saw the handwritten dated “cancel”. It makes me wonder why more classic pen cancels weren’t dated like this. Was it too slow - a squiggle being much faster? I wonder if many postal authorities were told that only official cancelling devices could be dated? There could be legal reasons as the dates on posts can be used as proof of on time payment and other matters. Huh, very interesting IMHO.
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,610
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
|
Post by JeffS on Oct 15, 2022 10:29:22 GMT
tobben63 - I was stunned when I saw the handwritten dated “cancel”. It makes me wonder why more classic pen cancels weren’t dated like this. Was it too slow - a squiggle being much faster? I wonder if many postal authorities were told that only official cancelling devices could be dated? There could be legal reasons as the dates on posts can be used as proof of on time payment and other matters. Huh, very interesting IMHO. I suggest this was fiscal use, not postal.
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,661
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Oct 15, 2022 11:13:59 GMT
Thanks for your post, Torbjørn ( tobben63). I agree that it is an interesting stamp. I am with JeffS on this one, I also think it is most likely a fiscal cancel, not a postal one. But of course, now that it has been separated from its "entire", meaning either the document or envelope to which it was affixed, it is not possible to be 100% certain. I can just say from my experience with fiscal uses on revenue stamps that many are script cancels of dates, sometimes accompanied by initials or signature. As always, other opinions are welcome, of course.
|
|
philatelia
Member
Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
Posts: 3,416
What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
|
Post by philatelia on Oct 15, 2022 19:20:53 GMT
Yes, JeffS and Beryllium Guy fiscal use makes sense for this particular stamp. BUT that still doesn’t explain why handwritten dates were mostly eschewed by postal clerks. That’s the point I was trying to make - the historical dearth of dated pen cancels on postally used stamps and covers. Why weren’t dates used?
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,661
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Oct 15, 2022 19:33:30 GMT
It's a valid question, Terri ( philatelia )! The old postal pen cancels I have are generally either an "X" or simply a line drawn through, much as the "Marker Monkeys" of modern times are doing. My best guess is that it's much faster to do the X or simple stroke of the pen, and that the volume of mail needing postal cancels was high, so they looked for ways to do it quickly. Fiscal cancels would have been rendered by bank staff or other officials rather than postal clerks, so my guess is that they were not in so much of a hurry to process big volumes of material needing cancels, and there may have even been a legal requirement to show the date that the revenue fee was paid. Perhaps someone who knows more about revenue uses can comment: Londonbus1 , vikingeck , daniel , JeffS .... others?
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,610
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
|
Post by JeffS on Oct 15, 2022 20:06:03 GMT
Just now in from a lovely lunch with my wife. I performed a quick eBay search using "fiscal pen cancel" within the British Empire and came up with several proving examples for the item in question being a fiscal use. www.ebay.com/sch/65174/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=fiscal+pen+cancel&_dmd=2As to postal pen cancels, the purpose was exactly that, to cancel the possibility of reusing the stamp in an expedient way. Perhaps obliterator is a better term although a simple pair of crossed pen strokes don't really "obliterate" the stamp. In any field of philatelic study, it is certainly important to become familiar with the nature of pen cancels for any area. If I recall correctly, pen cancels on very early Denmark and Iceland adhesives bring a premium over many hand-struck numeral cancels. But then, these issues had no fiscal validity, if I remember correctly. But I see I am straying from the intent of the original post...
|
|
vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,269
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
|
Post by vikingeck on Oct 15, 2022 20:19:03 GMT
The pen cancel with date is almost certainly revenue use on a document , or receipt, where the date of signature or contract is legally significant.
Most pen cancelled postal stamps are temporary expedients where the post office has no handstamp, maybe just a receiving depot. the object is merely to render the stamp unusable again. The date is usually irrelevant . Sometimes the stamp is cancelled later when it passes through a larger post office.
There are exceptions where postal clerks did write the date but these are unusual. From my personal collections I only have seen dated ink cancels in Denmark for 2 weeks in 1851 and in Samoa in 1877 until handstamps were aquired. Pen dates are also found on 19th century India and Ceylon , where they function as security to prevent pilfering between the sender and the post office where they will be cancelled as usual in addition.
what I have written applies to 19th century cancels …….not the modern postman’s biro!
|
|
tobben63
Member
Stamp eat sleep repeat
Posts: 1,866
What I collect: I collect to much, world wide!
|
Post by tobben63 on Oct 15, 2022 22:21:11 GMT
Thanks for all answers.
I also think the stamp is used as a revenue on document. I ave a lot of the 50cent and one skilling with signatures on, but no-one as clear and sharp as this.
Hand written dates/signatures and post house names on Norwegian stamps used on letters, not on documents, are 'sought' for. There are some examples on some of the upcoming Norwegian auctions.
|
|
philatelia
Member
Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
Posts: 3,416
What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
|
Post by philatelia on Oct 16, 2022 11:56:55 GMT
So far the only theory in response to my initial query asking why weren’t dates used in postal pen cancellations matches my own - squiggles and X’s were simply faster for harried clerks and as vikingeck said they fulfilled the primary purpose of the cancel ie obliteration. Yup - Occam’s razor for certain here - the simplest answer is probably right. Still, the universal absence of dated pen postal cancels on stamps and covers strikes me as just a tiny bit odd. There must have been a few anal postal clerks who used dates, right? Yeah - I was one oh those pesky little kids who always asked “But WHY?” lol!
|
|
|
Post by daniel on Feb 11, 2023 1:39:27 GMT
First Day Cover Independence Uhuru Issue 9th December 1961. SG 108-117
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,610
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
|
Post by JeffS on Feb 11, 2023 10:49:52 GMT
So far the only theory in response to my initial query asking why weren’t dates used in postal pen cancellations matches my own - squiggles and X’s were simply faster for harried clerks and as vikingeck said they fulfilled the primary purpose of the cancel ie obliteration. Yup - Occam’s razor for certain here - the simplest answer is probably right. Still, the universal absence of dated pen postal cancels on stamps and covers strikes me as just a tiny bit odd. There must have been a few anal postal clerks who used dates, right? Yeah - I was one oh those pesky little kids who always asked “But WHY?” lol! I will suggest that such pen canceled stamps were once on an envelope or folded letter, with the dispatching town and date adjacent to the stamp written in ink. In the US these are referred to as “manuscript postmarks” where a metal cancel device wasn’t available.
|
|
angore
Member
Posts: 5,363
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
|
Post by angore on Feb 11, 2023 11:19:03 GMT
Here is a contribution.
|
|
|
Post by jimwentzell on Jun 12, 2023 2:52:09 GMT
Sometimes it pays to visit EVERY stamp dealer at a stamp show, even if you think you won't find anything else..... In 2019 I was nearing the last of the dealer booths at a big stamp show in Sindelfingen, Germany. I almost passed up the fellow offering yet more German covers. I thought to myself I had plenty of those! So I said "sorry I'm only looking for oversized covers!" and before I could scoot away he pulled out this gem. A 1939 registered oversized cover. Sent from Chunya (Tanganyika at the time; it's in present-day Tanzania) to a Mr. Ulrich von Seydlitz in nearby Kungutas. Multiple circular date stamps show May 25, 1939 cancellations. There is a notation after the address " Lupa Goldfields" so I'm assuming this oversized registered envelope may have carried documents pertaining to a nearby mining operation. It was "cut down" (reduced), unfortunately, by someone other than me. The FRONT is franked with 25 King George V KUT (Kenya/Uganda/Tanganyika) 1 cent stamps, from the 1935 set:
On the reverse are THIRTY more of the same stamp! Sure glad I stopped there.....
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,661
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Jun 12, 2023 3:15:11 GMT
The FRONT is franked with 25 King George V KUT (Kenya/Uganda/Tanganyika) 1 cent stamps, from the 1935 set: On the reverse are THIRTY more of the same stamp! Very nice, Jim, thanks for posting! As to the 30 more of the same stamp on the reverse, actually.... not quite. It looks like 25 more KGV and 5 KGVI (top row). Still, a very interesting find, and I congratulate you, Jim!
|
|
cjoprey
Member
Scanning stamps for my website...
Posts: 1,465
What I collect: Belgium (predominantly), British Commonwealth (older ones), WW (whatever comes my way...)
|
Post by cjoprey on Jun 12, 2023 13:45:12 GMT
First Day Cover Independence Uhuru Issue 9th December 1961. SG 108-117 OK - that's... weird. I lived in Mombasa in the 1980s, and knew the Rodway family. Small world!
|
|