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Post by PostmasterGS on Mar 23, 2016 19:08:55 GMT
I haven't shared anything from the collection in a while, and since you don't see these very often, here you go -- 2 Pfennig Yacht Proofs of the German Colonies. The lowest-value Yacht stamps that were used throughout the colonies were the 3 pfennigs, which are brown. These are proofs of a 2-pfennig design in gray-blue. There are 5 total: MiNr I P 1 (Samoa) MiNr II P 1 (Cameroon / Kamerun) MiNr III P 1 (German Southwest Africa / Deutsch-Südwestafrika) MiNr IV P I (Carolines / Karolinen) MiNr V P (German New Guinea / Deutsch-Neuguinea) MiNr I-IV were printed in blocks of 16, arranged as follows: DSWA | DSWA | Samoa | Samoa | DSWA | DSWA | Samoa | Samoa | Karolinen | Karolinen | Kamerun | Kamerun | Karolinen | Karolinen | Kamerun | Kamerun |
As such, they can be found in roughly equal numbers, and they share the same catalog values. The German New Guinea issue is a bit of a mystery to me. Michel lists it in the catalog, but I can't find any mention of it in any of the usual references. Michel doesn't give it a CV (--.--), so it's rare enough that they're unable to establish a value. Have to keep my radar up for that one, and the DSWA that I'm missing!
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Post by PostmasterGS on Oct 17, 2016 17:04:36 GMT
Finally managed to snag a decent copy of the DSWA issue. It's a little dirty, but it'll do!
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cjd
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Post by cjd on Oct 18, 2016 2:44:17 GMT
More neat stuff.
So, do you ever see these in blocks, or even se-tenant pairs? That center block of four would be quite something, no?
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Post by PostmasterGS on Oct 18, 2016 11:29:10 GMT
cjd, I've seen se-tenant pairs once or twice in the last dcade or two. I distinctly recall seeing two se-tenant pairs (one DSWA/Samoa, one Kamerun/Karolinen) in the same lot. IIRC, it sold for about €24,000. I saw a center block of four once. It sold for around €30,000. Safe to say I won't be buying one of those anytime soon!
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cjd
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Post by cjd on Oct 18, 2016 18:16:23 GMT
It's just nice to know they're out there...
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Oct 7, 2018 6:46:06 GMT
cjd , I've seen se-tenant pairs once or twice in the last dcade or two. I distinctly recall seeing two se-tenant pairs (one DSWA/Samoa, one Kamerun/Karolinen) in the same lot. IIRC, it sold for about €24,000. I saw a center block of four once. It sold for around €30,000. Safe to say I won't be buying one of those anytime soon! Thanks for starting this thread, PostmasterGS! Great stuff, the likes of which I have never seen, not that that is saying all that much. Still, beautiful! As it happens, yesterday, I saw an uncut, imperforate sheet of Togo 2-pfennig stamps in brown as part of the collection of my friend and colleague, Xavier ( hrdoktorx). I am hoping that by tagging him now, I can persuade him to share that remarkable piece with all of us!
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hrdoktorx
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Posts: 7,213
What I collect: France (and French territories), Africa, Canada, USA, Germany, Guatemala, stamps about science, flags, maps, stamps on stamps...
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Post by hrdoktorx on Oct 7, 2018 8:03:47 GMT
When asked so nicely, Beryllium Guy , how can I refuse? So there you go. Seeing the going prices of the actual 2-pfennig stamp themselves quoted above, I don't think I'll be getting them anytime soon. Unless I win the lottery or the Nobel Prize, whichever (doesn't) happen first...
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Post by PostmasterGS on Oct 7, 2018 12:56:05 GMT
Beryllium Guy , hrdoktorx , The Togo 2 Pf sheet is a reprint made at the 2009 IBRA stamps show in Essen. It originally sold for €69.50, but can be found at auction now for around €80. Of note, since I failed to post this when I saw it originally, in their June 2018 auction, the Württembergisches Auktionshaus offered a rare center block of these proofs with an opening price of €30,000. I don't have a catalog handy to verify, but I believe it went unsold at the auction, only to be purchased at their after-auction sale for €28,000 + commission/fees/etc.
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hrdoktorx
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Posts: 7,213
What I collect: France (and French territories), Africa, Canada, USA, Germany, Guatemala, stamps about science, flags, maps, stamps on stamps...
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Post by hrdoktorx on Oct 7, 2018 13:06:29 GMT
Beryllium Guy , hrdoktorx , The Togo 2 Pf sheet is a reprint made at the 2009 IBRA stamps show in Essen. It originally sold for €69.50, but can be found at auction now for around €80. As the article shown above indicates, I did indeed get the sheet from Sieger, as part of my German Colonies subscription. I've been buying from them regularly for almost two decades now, and they always have great quality material, although not always (but quite often, to be fair) at the cheapest prices. I certainly would consider myself a very satisfied customer.
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Oct 7, 2018 13:08:34 GMT
Beryllium Guy , hrdoktorx , The Togo 2 Pf sheet is a reprint made at the 2009 IBRA stamps show in Essen. It originally sold for €69.50, but can be found at auction now for around €80. Of note, since I failed to post this when I saw it originally, in their June 2018 auction, the Württembergisches Auktionshaus offered a rare center block of these proofs with an opening price of €30,000. I don't have a catalog handy to verify, but I believe it went unsold at the auction, only to be purchased at their after-auction sale for €28,000 + commission/fees/etc. Thanks, Postmaster GS, I appreciate knowing more about the origin of the sheet and its current value. Stunning news on the rare center block which you had previously described which now has sold. I'm with Xavier ( hrdoktorx) on that one: I will just enjoy seeing the image here on TSF of the block, and of the single copies from your collection. Anyway, great stuff on these unissued 2-pfennig stamps--a real education for me! Many thanks.
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rod222
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Oct 25, 2023 9:52:16 GMT
PostmasterGSRegarding NEW GUINEA German (Deutsch) New Guinea. Auction text includes.. "each with Bothe guarantee handstamp"
Any members able to explain this please?
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JeffS
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What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
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Post by JeffS on Oct 25, 2023 10:25:10 GMT
PostmasterGS Regarding NEW GUINEA German (Deutsch) New Guinea. Auction text includes.. "each with Bothe guarantee handstamp"
Any members able to explain this please? Apparently the stamp’s authenticity has been guaranteed by someone named Bothe.
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vikingeck
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What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Oct 25, 2023 10:47:08 GMT
Usually with a tiny printed handstamp on the reverse .
Very much the German style of guarantee in a past generation , a dealer expert would handstamp his name on the back as a guarantee of authenticity. I believe there was some sort of convention as to the location and direction of these handstamps and an upside down h/s could mean "forgery" but I am not certain of the convention. Sadly today with increased scientific and computer image expert examination some old handstamps have proven unreliable or even suspect, and they tend to be discounted or ignored.
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rednaxela
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Posts: 201
What I collect: Germany in all its facets since 1871 (especially German Reich used including postal statinoneries, used), USSR, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Denmark, France. I design all album pages for my collection myself and partly make them available to the general public for use.
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Post by rednaxela on Oct 25, 2023 10:57:45 GMT
PostmasterGS Regarding NEW GUINEA German (Deutsch) New Guinea. Auction text includes.. "each with Bothe guarantee handstamp"
Any members able to explain this please? Apparently the stamp’s authenticity has been guaranteed by someone named Bothe. Hans Bothe examined stamps of the German Empire and the German colonies and has already died several years ago. About 15 years ago, there was an intensive discussion in German stamp forums about the (probably not rare) forgeries of Hans Bothe's proof mark.
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rod222
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Oct 25, 2023 12:44:55 GMT
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Post by PostmasterGS on Oct 25, 2023 12:48:01 GMT
rod222 , As the others stated above, it means the stamp has an expert mark from Hans Bothe, who was an expert on Germany and the German Colonies for several decades beginning in the early 1960s.
If you or any of our fellow members want to know more on the "why"... In German philately, there are generally three methods by which an expert shows an item is authentic -- a photo certificate, a certificate without photo, and a mark on the stamp. Photo certificates traditionally were only for higher-end items, but as technology has advanced and it's much easier to scan stamps and generate certificates, they've become more common with lower-end items. The mark made directly on the stamp was always seen (in the pre-photo cert days) as the best way to ensure the opinion stayed with the stamp. As this has been an accepted practice for a long time, the mark doesn't detract from the value of the stamp in the German market (in fact, it increases the value significantly), and is not seen as a defect in the way it would be in many other collecting areas. These days, you do still see marks being applied, but usually only for the more common items. For example, there are Colonies stamps for which there are 6 shades of brown -- some very valuable and some not, and several difficult to tell apart. If I sent in a batch of these for en expert to examine, I'd likely get photo certs for the rarer ones and an expert mark for the more common shades. The expert mark can be just a name, indicating it's genuine, or a name and a catalog suffix (see below example), indicating it's genuine and it's a specific variety. Here's what one looks like with a mark from Michael Jäschke-Lantelme, who is currently a BPP expert for German Colonies. The "II b" indicates this is MiNr. 1 II b. They can also commonly be found on postcards (see Bothe BPP mark at lower right of rear). For BPP expert marks, there is a placement system. This placement system is designed to show if there's been later alteration of the stamp. For example, if an unoverprinted mint stamp is marked as genuine, then a forger later tries to apply a fake overprint or cancel, the placement of the expert mark will show that at the time it was certified, it was a mint unoverprinted stamp.
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rednaxela
Member
Posts: 201
What I collect: Germany in all its facets since 1871 (especially German Reich used including postal statinoneries, used), USSR, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Denmark, France. I design all album pages for my collection myself and partly make them available to the general public for use.
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Post by rednaxela on Oct 25, 2023 13:05:20 GMT
Usually with a tiny printed handstamp on the reverse . Very much the German style of guarantee in a past generation , a dealer expert would handstamp his name on the back as a guarantee of authenticity. I believe there was some sort of convention as to the location and direction of these handstamps and an upside down h/s could mean "forgery" but I am not certain of the convention. Sadly today with increased scientific and computer image expert examination some old handstamps have proven unreliable or even suspect, and they tend to be discounted or ignored. Maybe this is helpful:
Extract from the examination regulations of the Bund Philatelistischer Prüfer e.V. (Germany), as of 30.04.2022 (translated from German) (Link of the Bund Philatelistischer Prüfer, only in German)6.5.The proof marks are basically set with black document-proof color as follows: Figures 1 A and B
Stamps that have remained imperforate are signed like cut stamps.
Damaged, repaired or embellished test items and unused stamps without or with altered gum will have the test mark raised, depending on the degree of the defect (Fig. 2 A). Heavily damaged or repaired test items are signed raised to the center of the stamp (Fig. 2 B). Figures 2 A und B Test items with a Michel value of € 500 or more or a market value of more than € 150, which the examiner estimates at his reasonable discretion, will not be signed in any case, especially not in the case of quality impairments. Such test items will receive a short report, finding or certificate. The examiner does not sign such test items, even if requested to do so by the client.
6.6 As a rule, low-value test pieces do not receive a test mark. Under no circumstances will a test mark be applied if the low-value test piece can be confused with higher-value stamps. Such test pieces may be classified by type stamps without the name of the examiner.
As I just saw, PostmasterGS has already given a very comprehensive information...
But maybe the hints are not completely useless with regard to either high-value or low-value proof items...
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rod222
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Oct 25, 2023 13:18:11 GMT
Fascinating stuff, again, Thank you.
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Oct 25, 2023 14:06:08 GMT
rod222 I just wanted to mention that three years ago, I started a thread on forged versus genuine expertizing marks, as I was being offered an auction lot of Danzig Germania overprints that the dealer claimed were genuine since most had the expertizing marks on them. I did some research and eventually concluded that all of the expertizing marks on the ones in the lot I was being offered were forged. You can read about it here: thestampforum.boards.net/thread/7407/expertizing-certificates-genuine-forged-invalid
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