madbaker
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Post by madbaker on Mar 19, 2017 21:51:22 GMT
Moderator Note: This thread was created under this name from the merging of two previously separate threads, Is this Foxing? and My treatment of Foxing/Mold, started by Anping . The resulting thread titled Foxing & Staining: Identifying Sources & Treatment was again changed to accommodate discussion on iron gall ink corrosion.
Hi, I was going through a collection of Italy stamps and found these airmails with the same weird stains on the left side. Plus a commem with some icky stains too. Is this what people are referring to when they describe foxing? They look like tape stains to me. From the backside of the commem I'm assuming there was lots of acid in whatever was used to hinge the stamp (glue and newspaper?!) Are these the type of issues that spread to other stamps? All are minimum value stamps so I'm not stressed about discarding them. Just want to understand the issue better. (The commem is going regardless.) Thanks, Mark
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scb
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Post by scb on Mar 20, 2017 6:27:34 GMT
Nope. Not foxing... Like you wrote, seems like tape (greasy glue) damage...
If you want to be truly on the safe side, use UV-lamp to check it. If it lights up, then it is organic and alive.
-k-
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madbaker
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Post by madbaker on Mar 20, 2017 15:46:45 GMT
Nope. Not foxing... Like you wrote, seems like tape (greasy glue) damage... If you want to be truly on the safe side, use UV-lamp to check it. If it lights up, then it is organic and alive. -k- Will do! Thanks Keijo.
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 20, 2017 20:30:21 GMT
I was going through a collection of Italy stamps and found these airmails with the same weird stains on the left side. Plus a commem with some icky stains too. Is this what people are referring to when they describe foxing? They look like tape stains to me. From the backside of the commem I'm assuming there was lots of acid in whatever was used to hinge the stamp (glue and newspaper?!) Are these the type of issues that spread to other stamps? Thanks for this post, Mark, and for the subsequent response, Keijo.
This turned out to be a learning opportunity for me, as I had not heard the term "foxing" before. So, I looked it up, and learned, as Keijo alludes to in his response, that foxing is actual mildew or mold in the paper which results in stains.
What is even more concerning to me is the idea that if stamps are plagued by real foxing, that the mold/mildew can spread to other stamps or album pages. I have some stamps in my collection, mostly unused stamps with gum, that exhibit brown stains on the edges and/or mainly on the backs of the stamps. Most of these stamps have been acquired from sources in hot, humid locations such as Tokyo or Singapore.
Do either of you know if brown stains like I have described are considered foxing or not?
Any comments or advice you can offer would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Chris
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madbaker
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Post by madbaker on Mar 21, 2017 3:11:42 GMT
I hear talk of three maladies: foxing, rust and toning. I'm not sure if they are all the same thing or not. But my understanding of the mildew/spores problem is a discolouration which starts at the perforations and spreads inland from there.
No doubt I'll find some more in my stock and will post pics if I do. But why not post some pictures of your stamps to compare? (If your photobucket issues are resolved, that is!)
And as Keijo said, maybe a UV light will help diagnose the problem. I'll try it out too.
Mark
PS - right now I'm going through a lot of Czech stamps that are in wonderful condition. So it will be a while before I find some to post here. haha.
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 21, 2017 4:22:06 GMT
Thanks for the further response, Mark. Unfortunately, I do not have a UV light, so I guess I will need to look into getting one of those.
In the meantime, I will look for some examples from my collection, and I will post photos here as I run across them. The PB issues are "at bay" for the moment, so I am once again operational, thanks to help from you, Steve, and Nelson (knock on wood!).
More as I find it....
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scb
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Post by scb on Mar 21, 2017 6:39:58 GMT
Sounds like foxing. And it WILL spread when/if certain conditions are met.... Have written about foxing (and related happenings) a number of times at my blog (see link on my signature).
Like any organic thing fungi requires moisture and warmth. If those are not available the spores will get dormant (and can stay in hibernation for long periods of time till more favorable conditions exist). The best you can do is: 1) detect early and detect well - pair of eyes gets you started, but once you see visual changes the damage has already occurred. Thus UV-lamp is required for early detection
2) isolate (and get rid of) anything contaminated - Some collectors try to treat the stamps (chlorineT, oxidization etc) or isolate them (seal in mount, plastic container etc). Whether or not it works is subjective. Most importantly, once the paper/pulp is damaged there's no way to reverse it, you can only mask it temporarily. Personally I just bin and burn them.
3) control temperature and air humidity AND keep them steady - in here the first step would be to get some kind of temp/humidity meter and keep track of the environment your stamps reside. You should aim for situation where relative humidity is 40-50% and temperature is slightly less 20 celsius - and keep it constant day and night (as the real problems surface when/if humidity + temperature vary).
(and yes, thinking of it all can drive one nuts because theoretically speaking spores are all around us, and most of the stamps are potential victims/carriers way before you notice anything)
Strictly speaking toning is a chemical reaction, usually caused by ligning on the pulp/paper.
Rust, foxing... Are usually the one and same. There are several types of mold and fungi behind it, some clearly different than others (different colors, different types of spots etc)
-k-
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 21, 2017 15:12:01 GMT
Sounds like foxing. And it WILL spread when/if certain conditions are met.... Have written about foxing (and related happenings) a number of times at my blog (see link on my signature). Rust, foxing... Are usually the one and same. There are several types of mold and fungi behind it, some clearly different than others (different colors, different types of spots etc.) Thanks for the detailed response, Keijo. I will check out your blog and start culling anything like this that I find out of my collection.
I will also post some photos as I find examples, and I may ask for your opinion on some.
Actual rust stains (not foxing) are occasionally found on stamps that were bound together with paperclips which rusted while holding the stamps. These are normally easy to identify, as the pattern made by the paperclip is also evident.
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Mar 21, 2017 23:14:44 GMT
Chris, one thing to take from Keijo's reply is that humidity is essential for these organic moulds / fungi to take root. I assume your part of Arizona is dry (because there aren't many parts of Arizona which aren't dry!) so that is a good sign - as long as your stamps start off clean, they'll probably stay clean as long as you stay in Arizona. Calgary, where I live, has a low average humidity indoors and although I have plenty of stamps which have come from elsewhere already affected with toning, all I do is just set them aside and I don't worry about them much. We might get high humidity numbers outdoors overnight or during rainstorms, so that's the number that shows up on our weather readings, but once you warm up the air enough to tolerate life indoors that humidity number really drops. We have had a couple of very wet summers (by our standards) recently and my indoor weather station has now set a new record, all the way up to 41% humidity inside my house at one point last summer. In the winter months it's almost never above 20% indoors, and when it's ugly cold outside it's always below 10%. That causes its own problems, of course - I get static electricity shocks from absolutely everything and the cats don't like being petted in the winter nearly as much. Oh well. I can deal with it fine, I'm born & bred here so low humidity doesn't bother me, and I've actually removed the humidifier attachment from my furnace (a common feature in houses here) because I prefer the safety for my stamps given by the lower humidity.
Don't store any stamps in the basement, that's my biggest piece of advice. Lower temps down there will mean higher humidity values, and that's where the problems can start, especially if you're putting boxes of stamps directly on to a concrete floor.
Ryan
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 22, 2017 3:29:54 GMT
Chris, one thing to take from Keijo's reply is that humidity is essential for these organic moulds / fungi to take root. I assume your part of Arizona is dry (because there aren't many parts of Arizona which aren't dry!) so that is a good sign - as long as your stamps start off clean, they'll probably stay clean as long as you stay in Arizona. Don't store any stamps in the basement, that's my biggest piece of advice. Lower temps down there will mean higher humidity values, and that's where the problems can start, especially if you're putting boxes of stamps directly on to a concrete floor. Thanks so much for your additional constructive comments, Ryan. You are absolutely right, of course!
I live in northern Arizona, which is not as dry as Phoenix and Tucson down in the valley, but it is still relatively dry. Relative humidity today has been 19%, which is pretty good. I do understand that high humidity is one of the key sources of the problem with foxing of stamps.
Unfortunately, as I mentioned in the previous post, I have bought stamps which have resided in humid places such as Tokyo and Singapore, so those are the ones I need to examine more closely. In a few cases, I have noticed that removing the gum, which was the only part of the stamp to show the toning/staining, seems to have removed the brown spots. Is there any evidence to support that gum is the more susceptible starting place for foxing?
Thanks as always, Ryan, for your valuable comments. I look forward to hearing more from you as I continue to further investigate this problem in my collection.
Best Regards, Chris
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scb
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Post by scb on Mar 22, 2017 8:47:36 GMT
Yes, controlling humidity levels is essential, but also temperatures do count a lot. For example with a room temperature of 20Β° C and a relative humidity of 60 % one cubic meter of room air holds about 10 g of water. If the room temperature is reduced to 8Β° C the air in the room can only absorb half the amount of moisture, the rest precipitates as condensation water mostly on the cooler surfaces (which if thinking for example very hot and heavy summer days are usually my stamp cabinets). The dew point at a room temperature of 20 Β°C, with a relative humidity of 50 %, is about 9Β°C . This calculator here might to get hold of the interaction between these two: www.dpcalc.org/ (notice that as you change the temperature and humidity sliders, it not only tells you dew point but on the side there is also "days to mold" etc. 'fun facts'). That said, too dry and too hot is not good for the stamps (nor humans) neither. For paper conversation the ideal would be 30-40% RH, but humans are best with 40-60% RH. The problem herein lies with existing fungi. Once it is there, it is very hard to get rid off or limits its growth (some research papers say that existing fungi can remain active in anything north of 10% RH). The best we collectors can do is minify the risks and observe (in low RH enviroment it can take years for situation to evolve into something you can see with bare eyes). -k-
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 22, 2017 19:37:45 GMT
Yes, controlling humidity levels is essential, but also temperatures do count a lot. For example.... That said, too dry and too hot is not good for the stamps (nor humans) neither. For paper conversation the ideal would be 30-40% RH, but humans are best with 40-60% RH. Thanks for your additional response, Keijo. I understand your point that both temperature and humidity work together in these situations. We use heating in the winter and air conditioning in the summer to keep the inside temperature around 20Β°C in the house, but we have not taken any steps to measure or control the humidity. I also agree neither extremes of temperature and humidity are not good either for people or stamps. We do what we can to get the best for both (people and stamps!).
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 25, 2017 18:20:48 GMT
Working again today on the First Frog ( firstfrog2013 ) TSF Donation Auction lot, I came across this used copy of Canada, Scott #74. To the naked eye, the stamp looks fine on the front, but on the back there is extensive brown staining. Does this look like foxing? I also noticed that although the stamp looks fine on the front with the naked eye, in this 600dpi image, I think that I can now see tinges of brown along the perfs on the left side of the stamp. I do not have a UV lamp at the moment, so I cannot do that examination, which would probably tell the whole story. Anyway, please post comments with opinions about this stamp. As a precaution, I have segregated this stamp away from the others for the moment.
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 26, 2017 7:13:38 GMT
Here is another stamp from the First Frog (firstfrog2013 ) TSF Donation Auction lot: Canada, Scott #89. Note the rust-colored/brownish staining around the edges, primarily affecting the perforations. So, is this foxing? My guess is that it probably is, but I am interested in other opinions.
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Anping
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Post by Anping on Mar 31, 2017 11:53:12 GMT
It is sometimes difficult to differentiate between the different types of staining that we come across. There may be instances where a combination of toning and foxing occur. It might be worth your while reading through this month's Stamporama newsletter called the Rambler. By coincidence, Kelly (the editor, aka Poodle_Mum) has centralised a number of posts related to the treatment of stamps, and experiments conducted by a number of members. From this information, you may feel confident to treat one or two of your rogues. Here is the link, but note this will download the newsletter in PDF format directly (approx. 1800 kb) : The March Edition of the RamblerBelow is a screenshot of an experiment I carried out (which was illustrated in the article), using Chloromine T:
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 31, 2017 14:03:43 GMT
Anping, thanks for the informative, detailed response! I will check out the Rambler newsletter and try to learn more.
The results you achieved on the illustrated stamp look quite good.
By the way, have you used UV light to tell the difference between foxing (mould or mildew) versus other kinds of staining? Just curious....
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Anping
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Post by Anping on Mar 31, 2017 15:40:35 GMT
No I haven't. In fact I had never heard of this method before reading this thread. I guess I'll have to load up some batteries in mine; which has never been used.
Just as an aside to all of this: there is a certain forum site owner who advocates immersing such stamps in very hot water. He believes that this kills any spores, while at the same time removing all the gunk. Probably doesn't remove any foxing stains but just stops it from getting worse.
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scb
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Post by scb on Mar 31, 2017 16:18:10 GMT
Chloramine-T is seriously poisonous stuff. Be sure to read safety instructions first if you try it, and give also some advance consideration of how you get rid of the waste (if you pour it down the drain, it will simply go back to stuff we eat/drink). The less chemicals people use the better (and yes, I admit being 'green tree-hugger, LOL). I may be blunt here, but IMHO that HongKong stamp would have looked the same even after a normal soak and scrub in warm tap water. At least most of the 'gunk' on the back seems like toned gum and hinge remainders, which dissolves with plain water. Re, those Canadian stamps... Neither is foxing IMHO. The Queen Victoria seems like it has been in touch with some mouldy paper long time ago, the King Edward looks more like 'burn damage'. But hard to say anything definitive from a photo. You might actually try to smell the stamps (active mould has the earthy odor everybody associates to mold, fungi/foxing usually does not have any distinct odor). Finally, here's one document which you might enjoy: ritaudina.com/en/2014/12/02/mould-or-foxing-documents-conservation/ (the comments on the page have got some links to UV reactions as well ... many fungis emit bioluminescencen stuff, which depending on the species and UV wavelength used will shine out like beacon in the dark... with non-organic toning/foxing you'll never see the unusual glow) (and before I forget... For non-organic stains there's a product/technology based on using Tek-Wipes. Just google 'tek-wipe conservation' and you'll get a number of readworthy pages) -k-
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Anping
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Post by Anping on Mar 31, 2017 16:37:39 GMT
I may be blunt here, but IMHO that HongKong stamp would have looked the same even after a normal soak and scrub in warm tap water. At least most of the 'gunk' on the back seems like toned gum and hinge remainders, which dissolves with plain water. Yes you're right, most of the 'gunk' would have dissolved in plain tap water. But there were two areas where it would not. The immersion was to kill two birds with one stone. I'll emphasise that this was a sacrificial stamp (bought for a song because of its condition) for the experiment, in the hope it might improve. It's interesting you mention that Chloromine T is seriously poisonous. I'd be interested to hear your views on it's use in Koy carp ponds (note the small image on the sachet).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2017 16:58:04 GMT
I would look up the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) on Chloramine-T Different producers will give it varying degrees of issues , some in-depth others rather superficial. If you see one from Viachem, they tend to be in-depth
It is used in Koy ponds, in low dosage, as it eventually breaks down but contact for humans is of course another matter which the MSDS addresses
Just some left over knowledge from one of my career professions
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Anping
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Post by Anping on Mar 31, 2017 17:59:40 GMT
Further to SCB's comments about using Chloromine T, I should also emphasise that its use is a contentious issue amongst document preservation specialists. I did some research before using this stuff and found that there was a concern. However, the main reason for such concern was centred on the one factor that is impossible to test for: TIME. Being a relatively new chemical formulation, preservationists have not had the opportunity to test the long term effects of its use. They are concerned that over time the paper fibres (lignin ?) may break down. But equally, they may not. It is quite understandable for them to be cautious, as their primary focus is on document preservation. As much of their work is dedicated to unique documents, it would be high risk to use a chemical compound that has not stood the rigours of time. I, on the other hand, am not that concerned about the long term effects on low end stamp material (where copies are in abundance). I use this chemical (and others) when I want to revive stamps with desirable postmarks. I have in fact had some stunning results on prints and even wood block prints. This has allowed me to enjoy a picture in its former glory; see below. As for the release of such chemicals down the drain: The most I mix up is about one to two teaspoons in ΒΌ pint of water which I store in a jar until it no longer has any cleaning ability (about 10 days). The above wood block, was in a very poor state; smoke stained and dirty. The rigging was totally invisible, until immersed in a shallow bath of C. T. This is why I use the chemical.
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scb
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Post by scb on Mar 31, 2017 19:01:38 GMT
It's all about dosage. For fish tanks and ponds the recommended dosage is about 2mg/liter - about size of needless tip.
Yikes... For each teaspoon, and you should have about 2500 liters of water to keep it on 'safe for enviroment' level.
(for the record, I'm not a professional on this stuff. I just have an extensive collection of vintage 'paper stuff' besides stamps as well, which has lead me to read and try a lot of stuff).
-k-
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firstfrog2013
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Mar 31, 2017 19:14:31 GMT
While not familiar with this product let me tell you a number of products that worked really well were pulled off the market.The latest I've found is those mouse baits we all used for years,seems they suddenly aren't safe.Don't figure.How bout just using things responsibly ? Nah, people aren't that smart ban it. Last year I went looking for a product that you added to paint that allowed you to paint plastic with common paint.Guess what not available in my state,I could however drive sixty miles and buy as much as I wanted.
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Anping
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Post by Anping on Mar 31, 2017 20:56:23 GMT
The Chloromine T sachet shown in my post was a stock photo from eBay, so I don't know if its concentration level differs from what I have actually used: As you may be able to see, the sachet shows 100ml and the instructions state that the whole sachet, (I used considerably less) should be dissolved in one third pint water. So based on your comments, it would seem that this dosage level from an environmental aspect, is extreme. There were however, no warnings nor further information given with this product. I use the past tense, because the product is no longer available. I'm only guessing here, but the effectiveness as a treatment for paper and textiles (as opposed to pond treatment), may well have had to be at the strength stated. Your comments regarding disposal are worth remembering though. Perhaps, there are alternatives just as effective but less damaging to the environment.
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scb
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Post by scb on Apr 1, 2017 5:33:01 GMT
I'm no chemist, but AFAIK hydrogen peroxide is pretty much the safest bleaching agent and mold-fungi killer out there (both in terms of environment and pulp degradation). It turns to just water and oxygen when exposed to UV (sunlight). Maybe other non-chlorine bleaches fit the shoe as well.
Then there are non-chemical options based on use of high power UV (common with fish tanks, air filters etc. being every day usages). UV kills fungi/mold, and can be used for bleaching as well (kind of like leaving paper to sunlight for extended periods - but more powerful).And a disclaimer: if you try this at home, then read and follow the safety instructions that come with these sterilizing UV lamps - misuse can make you blind, cause severe burns, cause cancer etc. not-so-fun stuff.
But like I wrote before, even on best scenario these all are useful for masking the damage already occurred. They will not truly turn back the time...
-k-
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Anping
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Post by Anping on Aug 30, 2017 10:46:32 GMT
Although this subject has been discussed ad nauseam on various boards and in numerous philatelic and paper conservation articles, I just wanted to describe my experience of a treatment method which I have used on and off for some years. We are all mostly aware of a condition problem that can affect our stamp collections; called foxing (here in the UK) or rusting/mold (elsewhere). This can be destructive in that it can spread given the ideal circumstances. Although this condition evolves more so in tropical climates, it can also emerge in poorly ventilated and damp storage conditions. I've had my small share of material affected by foxing, mainly because I collect Hong Kong, which endures a very humid and wet tropical season. There are from what I have seen, more severe examples from countries where air conditioning is the exception rather than the rule; such as India. I have a couple of very early covers from India terribly affected by foxing but where the the damage has gone beyond brown spotting and staining only to exhibit what I can best describes as termite (or silver fish) feeding holes. Perhaps these are indeed caused by such beasties but if so, the combination of humid conditions, tasty damp glue and poor quality paper just destroys this material. To try to curtail the potential for foxing/mold to spread, I use a substance called Chloromine-T as a chemical soak. Chloromine-T was readily obtainable in the UK a few years ago under the brand name 'Foxit' from some philatelic outlets. It's purpose was to kill mould spores and at the same time bleach out these blemishes on documents, stamps and silks. But the product strangely disappeared from the market. In fact, I have only just found one eBay seller who is selling this product again, which I had first used over 25 years ago. When this product disappeared from the market, I sought an alternative. I found the same chemical for use in sanitising drinking systems, treating poultry related diseases and for eradicating certain skin afflictions in coy carp. The added bonus was being able to buy the crystals in 100g tubs, as opposed to the Foxit, which was packaged in 5g bags at comparatively huge cost. I use about 2 grams of Chloromine-T in half a pint of water but find I have to vary the amount of the chemical in more severe cases. I have used Chloromine-T primarily on documents, which has produced some quite amazing results. In addition to the above claimed 'cures', it has also treated smoke impregnated documents; as found in old pictures hung near open coal fires. As for these documents, I unfortunately didn't take any 'before' images of my document restoration because I had no PC at the time and thus had no apparent reason for doing so. However, I do have 'after' treatment images, which are mainly photographs. Here is one example of treatment I applied to a very old block print which was badly affected by smoke staining. This took three treatments before the print finally gave up all its staining in tea coloured water. Once lightly pressed under weight until dry, it was only then that I realised that there were buildings and clouds in the background behind the rigging. But even after the treatment, there is still a slight outline of the smoke staining where the glass once was. So although Chloromine-T has been very effective, it can't perform miracles. More to follow.......
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Anping
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Post by Anping on Aug 30, 2017 11:12:11 GMT
And now to more philatelic material but this time affected by foxing/mold: Over the last couple of days I have been treating two Queen Victorian Hong Kong Postal Stationery Cards (PSC's). These, as can be seen, were not in good shape and were sacrificial due to their damage and staining: Before Treatment: After Treatment: Although a significant improvement, the card may benefit from a further treatment.
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Anping
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Post by Anping on Aug 30, 2017 11:21:59 GMT
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Anping
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Post by Anping on Aug 31, 2017 0:12:53 GMT
I have a tiny sub-collection of Hong Kong QV stamps from the 1884 definitive issue; specifically the 10 cent deep blue-green (SG37). For some unknown reason, I have always found this shade to be very attractive and unusual and have been trying to obtain a copy used in each Treaty Port with a fine cancel. This particular stamp was superceded very shortly after issue by the same value but printed in a true green colour. The reason for the change was a request by the Postmaster General who reported that the deep blue-green shade caused confusion between it and the 30 cent mauve when viewed in gas light. Finding fine examples of these used in the Treaty Ports is challenging, partly because the blue-green is not a common stamp. It is listed by Gibbons at about 11 times the price of its successor. Plus the added difficulty of finding these cancelled outside the Colony itself; in some of the more isolated treaty port post offices. Sometimes condition can be a problem. Although I won't buy any torn or damaged stamps, I will put up with examples that are toned and even affected by tropicalisation, namely foxing/mold. The reason I accept these, apart from getting them at a lower price, is that I am confident at treating these rogues and returning them to their former glory (or very nearly). Firstly, here's an example of the quite long lived successor to the deep blue-green (SG37); the green SG37a, coincidentally with a rather scarce treaty port part cancel of Ningpo: Following on is a badly toned and foxed copy of a deep blue-green, with Amoy cancel: Having put this through the wash with Chloromine-T, this was the result: A marked improvement which now graces my main sub-collection. Here's a selection including B62, the above Amoy, Canton, Foochowfoo, Hankow, Shanghae (with bent E), Shanghaf (broken E), and a full strike of the same postmark type, on an extreme shade of deep blue-green:
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Post by smauggie on Aug 31, 2017 0:27:11 GMT
You say there is a cheaper chemical that you used, what is that chemical?
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