stanley64
Member 
Posts: 1,818
What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
|
Post by stanley64 on Oct 13, 2019 6:05:33 GMT
Reviewing the Ottawa Duplex cancel on Map Stamp shared earlier, I note that the WINMILL reference for the Ottawa duplex cancel has the Indicia of either blank or numbers 1-5.
The copy I shared has an Indicia number '7', and will add this to the "notes and new fines [sic]" of the text :-)
For now though, does anyone know what these indicia markings represent? The AM/PM designations are self-explanatory; but as for the numbers or letters, they are a bit of a mystery...
If anyone interested in learning more about the duplex cancel and its mechanics, have a look at the " Duplex Cancellations of Canada" page from the Postal History Society of Canada. |
|
blaamand
Member
Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
Posts: 1,459 
What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
|
Post by blaamand on Oct 13, 2019 7:06:19 GMT
stanley64, I sent you a pm regarding that Xmas stamp with a certain variety. This is above my level of knowledge and outside my scope, so in short, you can have it if you need it. Jon
|
|
stanley64
Member
Posts: 1,818
What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
|
Post by stanley64 on Oct 13, 2019 7:36:46 GMT
I saw your message Jon ( blaamand) and responded... thank you! |
|
stanley64
Member
Posts: 1,818
What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
|
Post by stanley64 on Oct 13, 2019 7:43:26 GMT
continuing with Canada's various cancels of interest, there is something iconic about a small queen cancelled with a crown cancel...
1870-1897 Queen Victoria 3¢ Small Queen (Scott No. 37)
|
|
WERT
Departed
Rest in Peace
Posts: 1,062
What I collect: Canada and Provinces
|
Post by WERT on Oct 13, 2019 12:35:37 GMT
Here are a few cancels.. Robert
 |
|
renden
Member
Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
|
Post by renden on Oct 13, 2019 13:31:20 GMT
Reviewing the Ottawa Duplex cancel on Map Stamp shared earlier, I note that the WINMILL reference for the Ottawa duplex cancel has the Indicia of either blank or numbers 1-5.
The copy I shared has an Indicia number '7', and will add this to the "notes and new fines [sic]" of the text :-)
Stan Where would we see an unusual "7" enclosed on your Map cancel......not discussed by Winmill, I think (1-5 OK) René |
|
stanley64
Member
Posts: 1,818
What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
|
Post by stanley64 on Oct 13, 2019 14:15:46 GMT
Here you go René et al, I believe the indicia in this cancel is in fact a '7' (albeit not the best of scans)...
|
|
renden
Member
Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
|
Post by renden on Oct 13, 2019 14:53:09 GMT
Here you go René et al, I believe the indicia in this cancel is in fact a '7' (albeit not the best of scans)...
Yes Stan (indicia....whatever that means for a french Canadian LOL) but the killer does have the "1" inside RetroReveal shows a curved 7 if it is one...... René  |
|
stanley64
Member
Posts: 1,818
What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
|
Post by stanley64 on Oct 13, 2019 17:11:08 GMT
Re-reading the "Duplex Cancellations of Canada" page from the Postal History Society of Canada (url shared earlier), I note the following description of the Dater portion of a duplex cancel,
"A duplex hammer (struck exactly as you would a hammer) is composed of two parts: the dater, to indicate the office of origin, province, month and day and sometimes a timemark, and the obliterator (or killer) normally of horizontal bars in varying numbers used to render the stamp unusable a second time. These two parts are most commonly made from one piece of steel, but can sometimes be made of two separate pieces welded together, as was done with the A types".
From this, seeing many duplex cancels with the AM/PM designation, I have to assume that any number in the same position is a timemark e.g. WINMILL's reference for the Ottawa duplex cancel has the indicia of either blank or numbers 1-5.
As for the word "indicia" it does not mean anything to me either renden, at least not in any language I know and is a simply a column in the tables of the Winmill text and his discussion of the duplex cancel. Maybe it rings a bell for someone else in the Forum... |
|
renden
Member
Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
|
Post by renden on Oct 13, 2019 17:51:02 GMT
stanley64I agree with your previous post. I question the number "7" in the datemark cancel and just wanted to discuss this with you and other members. Take care !! René
|
|
stanley64
Member
Posts: 1,818
What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
|
Post by stanley64 on Oct 13, 2019 17:57:46 GMT
It is all good René; it was I that did not know it was the timemark and needed to educate myself... :-) For whatever reason, I did not make the connection between the AM/PM timemark and the fact that the numbers could also be a timemark, I thought they might have represented something else...
|
|
renden
Member
Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
|
Post by renden on Oct 13, 2019 18:15:25 GMT
I looked at the scan I posted after putting it into RetroReveal and it is a "7" (not curved as I previously said) on top in the dater and in the killer, one can see a "1" which is ok for Ottawa - Nice observations for a Portugal friend. How many MapStamps do you own ?? Me, 6, 2X 85s, 2X 85i (grey) and 1 86 and 86b. Love them !
René
|
|
stanley64
Member
Posts: 1,818
What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
|
Post by stanley64 on Oct 14, 2019 5:38:51 GMT
How many MapStamps do you own ?? Me, 6, 2X 85s, 2X 85i (grey) and 1 86 and 86b. Love them ! René I do not know René, I have never counted them ;-) I do know though that there is a stockbook dedicated to these little gems including mint & used copies, covers, etc. They are my first love of philately and an issue I always come back to...
|
|
renden
Member
Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
|
Post by renden on Oct 14, 2019 13:05:58 GMT
stanley64Happy you have a collection of them. In addition to my small lot, I won 6 more on Eb yesterday, all with various cancels including a Canada flag cancel....will post them when received. René
|
|
WERT
Departed
Rest in Peace
Posts: 1,062
What I collect: Canada and Provinces
|
Post by WERT on Oct 14, 2019 13:17:22 GMT
I got over 50 of them and only one block.. Robert
 |
|
blaamand
Member
Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
Posts: 1,459
What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
|
Post by blaamand on Oct 14, 2019 14:22:47 GMT
Here are a few cancels.. Robert
That's a great group of postmarks on those 3c Small Queens. Wow! WERT |
|
stanley64
Member
Posts: 1,818
What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
|
Post by stanley64 on Oct 14, 2019 14:23:23 GMT
Congratulations on the win renden and I look forward to seeing any of the stamps and their cancels posted here. As for the map collection and I must confess, I did start to count, but gave up ;-) Let me share something in the classics thread from the collection...
|
|
renden
Member
Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
|
Post by renden on Oct 14, 2019 14:27:17 GMT
WERT - Robert, this is one of many "Fancy Cancels" of many designs. It is noted in Winmill's book on the Map Stamp. As mentioned they were usually unofficial, normally prepared from cork of similar substance etc (page 63) It is illustrated in the book. You have shown us many of your 3c SQ post in this thread ! René
|
|
stanley64
Member
Posts: 1,818
What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
|
Post by stanley64 on Oct 15, 2019 6:37:08 GMT
I looked at the scan I posted after putting it into RetroReveal and it is a "7" (not curved as I previously said) on top in the dater and in the killer, one can see a "1" which is ok for Ottawa - Nice observations for a Portugal friend. René From the folks at the Postal History Society of Canada, it was pointed out that since it is 1899, the duplex is a DON-1208a, a variant seen was used from 1898-03-14 to 1902-01-12. Winmill’s information is erroneous and misleading, because DON-1208 was used 1885 to 1893 (with timemarks blank and 1-5) and thus does not appear on map stamps. DON-1208a has been seen used with timemarks 2 through 9 and hence a '7' is not unknown and is part of the society's duplex-cancel database.
Special thanks to Stéphane Cloutier & Rob Leigh of the society for providing the details and additional information regarding this cancel...
|
|
WERT
Departed
Rest in Peace
Posts: 1,062
What I collect: Canada and Provinces
|
Post by WERT on Oct 21, 2019 19:46:04 GMT
This is my favorite cover and cancel..1897 Tilt Cove Newfoundland cancel. Tilt Cove: Population 4..Smallest town/city in Canada.
Robert
Oh and one more cancel from Tilt Cove on paper.
 |
|
stanley64
Member
Posts: 1,818
What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
|
Post by stanley64 on Nov 16, 2019 7:38:46 GMT
Here is a recent purchase, Canada's map stamp (Scott No.85) and identified as Plate 3A, Position 91.
In this case though, it was the coloured cancel from Toronto that caught my eye! I do not recognize this type or variety of cancel and to find one on a map stamp is unusual.
If anyone can share additional details or a full version of the cancel, please do...
|
|
blaamand
Member
Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
Posts: 1,459
What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
|
Post by blaamand on Nov 16, 2019 12:21:09 GMT
WERT - Could it simply be a poorly struck 2-ring cancel, maybe with numeral 2 or 3? Seems about similar to this example:  Or it could even be a poorly struck target cancel?
|
|
WERT
Departed
Rest in Peace
Posts: 1,062
What I collect: Canada and Provinces
|
Post by WERT on Nov 16, 2019 14:38:14 GMT
stanley64 I see it is definitely a Toronto cancel..Have you tried BNAPS "fancy cancels" at the link below. Robert
|
|
renden
Member
Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
|
Post by renden on Nov 16, 2019 16:36:08 GMT
Here is a recent purchase, Canada's map stamp (Scott No.85) and identified as Plate 3A, Position 91.
In this case though, it was the coloured cancel from Toronto that caught my eye! I do not recognize this type or variety of cancel and to find one on a map stamp is unusual.
If anyone can share additional details or a full version of the cancel, please do...
I put it through Retroreveal and it looks like a CDS (Circular Date Stamp) but am not certain that the broken (what appears) line is no simply the absence of normal "ink" ?  |
|
WERT
Departed
Rest in Peace
Posts: 1,062
What I collect: Canada and Provinces
|
Post by WERT on Nov 16, 2019 16:57:50 GMT
Renden has a point...Over 100 years ago, stamp printers did not care about stamp collectors or even know they existed...Picture this (possibility) as they were cancelling stamps and ran out out black ink, they were handed a different coloured ink until new supplies came in...We never know why, cause we were not there..
Robert
|
|
stanley64
Member
Posts: 1,818
What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
|
Post by stanley64 on Nov 17, 2019 7:32:26 GMT
Thanks Gents!
I was not aware of the BNAPS "fancy cancels" *.pdfs and although I did not find any matches at first glance, the site has been book marked for future reference :-)
At the same time, I agree it is a CDS from Toronto and as the R.B. Winmill does not list any Toronto coloured cancels - we are in uncharted territory. Given that "TORONTO" starts low in the cancel arc, something must follow as there is plenty of room, e.g. street name, location, etc. before reaching the bottom * ONT *, and will keep this one open as I am curious to know what the full cancel would have looked like; it is good to have a mystery!
Appreciate the assistance... -Vince
|
|
WERT
Departed
Rest in Peace
Posts: 1,062
What I collect: Canada and Provinces
|
Post by WERT on Nov 17, 2019 13:36:58 GMT
stanley64 You might want to look through this site to see if you can find a Toronto like cancel. Robert www.bowcity.net/3.htm |
|
stanley64
Member
Posts: 1,818
What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
|
Post by stanley64 on Nov 17, 2019 16:30:45 GMT
Good suggestion Robert( WERT)!
I did have a look through the inventory a couple dealers I have dealt with in the past, scoured a few auction catalogues and looked through the site your shared; surprisingly, all to no avail!
As well, I sent a few emails to a couple of BNAPS study groups from the site you share earlier; let us see what that turns up.
For now though, I am quite content to place this one on the back burner and let it simmer as it does not appear to be a common cancel...
|
|
WERT
Departed
Rest in Peace
Posts: 1,062
What I collect: Canada and Provinces
|
Post by WERT on Nov 17, 2019 16:34:57 GMT
I will keep looking for you to..
Robert
|
|
stanley64
Member
Posts: 1,818
What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
|
Post by stanley64 on Nov 21, 2019 7:14:52 GMT
Thanks Robert ( WERT)! Always appreciative of an extra pair of eyes on the lookout... |
|
