renden
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What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Nov 24, 2023 23:08:14 GMT
Received today- I now have a duplicate 10F and lack the imperf 2F, so if by chance someone needs the 10 F and has a spare 2 .... PM me! As told in your Introduction, I collect Belgium so these two would help to complete.. not fair as I have both so delete my answer......René
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Post by viking1234 on Nov 25, 2023 22:27:19 GMT
renden Totally forgot to write my comment to the quote, to me the unperforated stamps Chemins De Feer 1FR, 1.10Fr, 5 Fr and 10 FR is false, the reason, they a printed at white paper, but I could be wrong. I do have unperforated Chemin De Feer my self and they do look good but that do not make them genuine.
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,649
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Nov 25, 2023 23:40:14 GMT
as I recall these were in with a lot of other railway stamps. I don't see much about them in COB
and it was a long time ago!. They might even be essays
I don't think they've been touched or looked at since!
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renden
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Posts: 8,723
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Nov 25, 2023 23:42:04 GMT
as I recall these were in with a lot of other railway stamps. I don't see much about them in COB and it was a long time ago!. They might even be essays Will check tomorrow....too late now - Thanks René
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rod222
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Posts: 9,937
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Nov 26, 2023 4:55:58 GMT
Here's one I hope cjoprey will add some clarity to the cancellation. From the lot I posted a small portion of a couple of post ago in this thread. Enghien N ( I am guess the lone N signifies North?!?) which would be the startrting place. Enghien is located in the Wallonia area of Belgium The date I believe to be August (VIII) 28, 1913.... at 1900 hours (7:00 PM) The bottom Edingen should be where this package/parcel or what ever was being transported by rail. But all I can find on Edingen by Googling, is "see Enghien" was this a local route (perhaps?) stainlessb EDINGEN / ENGHIEN is Line 94 (Code FNG)
Line 94 Leaves Bruxelles, and travels West to LILLE It branches off at ENGHIEN, with a line travelling North to GERAADSBERGEN (Line 123)
Line 94 going West is Bruxelles Enghien Silly Ath Leuze Tournai Froyennes Lille
Tripartite boxed
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Post by viking1234 on Nov 26, 2023 9:35:02 GMT
as I recall these were in with a lot of other railway stamps. I don't see much about them in COB and it was a long time ago!. They might even be essays I don't think they've been touched or looked at since! I have a COB 1997, and after Non dentele(unperforated) it is the Frank values COB 41-47 there is a line after "Les Timbres sur papier blanc son des réimpression privées" translate to Stamps at white paper is Private reprint. To me Private reprint do not sounds like official reprints and they exsist, that is why they are prized. I keep mine they belong in a collection at least they can be used as comparison. I have a OBP from 2009 "De zegels ob wit papier zijn private herdrukken" Translate Stamps at white paper is private reprints, only two catalogs I have, do not need more as I only Collect to 1950
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Post by viking1234 on Nov 26, 2023 11:48:14 GMT
rod222 I do have Railway stamps and really haven't given much attention to them, but seeing alle the pages set up, i think I will put them aside. My question to you is, is it possible that you could give a short introduction, how to read the postmarks at the railwaystamps and maybe show the different types, because I'm blank when it comes to the postmarks. Her is a foto of three, but i do not know how many I have, but hundreds in a box-
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rod222
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Nov 26, 2023 14:01:02 GMT
viking1234Imagine walking along in the forest, and you spy a bee's nest in a tree. You poke the nest with a stick. A nest is simple, it's just a collection of bees in a clump, Once poked, it explodes into a thousand angry bees. That's' what you are going to encounter, collecting Belgian Railways A lifetime in its complexity. You have pre WW1 Belgian Parcels service Germany invades in 1914, "Germania" stamps are overprinted The Belgian stamps were looted in their 1000's Then there is the unoccupied part of North West Flanders so Belgian "winged wheels" arrive Then the Belgians printed in France "The L'Havre" issues (Waterlow and sons) The common ones you example, are stamps attached to waybills for freight on trains They can be cancelled by CDS (Circular date stamps) "Chamfered boxes" etc Octagonals They are cancellations of the Stations where the waybills were issued. The Belgian Railways network was vast, and so are the cancellations There are 1000's Like Postal Postmarks, the cancellations can be collected, and are a budget way to have fun but if you are not organised, it ends up in an unholy mess Most Railways stamps I buy are around 40 stamps for $4, or thereabouts They are easy to read, each cancel is the name of a Rail station. I have over 2000 and I barely scratch the surface Happy collecting This is how I collect (If you choose to collect Rail names for each value stamp, then the collection can balloon to tens of 1000's)
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Post by viking1234 on Nov 26, 2023 14:16:40 GMT
rod222Thank you for taking your time to answer my question,Ii have wathched a Youtube video about railway stamp in Belgium just to learn, I guess I start right away. Once again thank you.
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stainlessb
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Posts: 4,649
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Nov 26, 2023 14:37:01 GMT
There is an excellent work byTom Jones, Railway Parcel Post Cancellations of Belgium, published by the Be;gian Study Circle, 2003. I mention this as there's no short answer ( although a tip of the hat to Rod for his short summary!) . There are many different types of obliterations and variants of many pf those. The book is 211 pages and printed in English
The date format varies with type of cancellation, period of use, and in some cases what line it was used on. Most are day-month-year, and time and year can be four numbers (1940) or simply the last 2 (40) The most frequently seen rectangular canvcellation has 3 . compartments - The top being the station of departure, center date format, and bottom could be blank, small 'adornments", or destination station.
I haven't seen any 'tally" for how many different ones there may be, but would agree with Rod it could be tens of thousands!
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stainlessb
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Posts: 4,649
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Nov 26, 2023 14:38:40 GMT
I have a COB 1997, and after Non dentele(unperforated) it is the Frank values COB 41-47 there is a line after "Les Timbres sur papier blanc son des réimpression privées" translate to Stamps at white paper is Private reprint. To me Private reprint do not sounds like official reprints and they exsist, that is why they are prized. I keep mine they belong in a collection at least they can be used as comparison. I have a OBP from 2009 "De zegels ob wit papier zijn private herdrukken" Translate Stamps at white paper is private reprints, only two catalogs I have, do not need more as I only Collect to 1950 i will take a closer look- I do remember seeing 'herdrukken"
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cjoprey
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Scanning stamps for my website...
Posts: 1,465
What I collect: Belgium (predominantly), British Commonwealth (older ones), WW (whatever comes my way...)
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Post by cjoprey on Nov 26, 2023 15:35:30 GMT
Stan stainlessb - here are an original TR11 and the reprint on whiter paper - you can clearly see the difference in paper tone (and note the different perf as well, which isn't always the case) - I think the same is true for the newer winged wheel stamps: Original COB #TR11 Reprinted stamp:
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Post by viking1234 on Nov 26, 2023 16:03:29 GMT
I found a resource about Belgium Railways it is absolouteluy fantastice I will try link to it Trains Grenier ferroviarirfe I have a challenge whwn I start up new Collections I try to spped up the process gathering information,
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Post by viking1234 on Nov 26, 2023 23:37:05 GMT
I have a question I can not figure out the buttom line where it is a Number is there an explanation?
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rod222
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Posts: 9,937
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Nov 27, 2023 0:10:14 GMT
I have a question I can not figure out the buttom line where it is a Number is there an explanation? I'll have to pass this on to the experts, I have no Catalogue to explain these.Askphil : FACTEUR (Fr) PostmanGuess: The numbers may be an audit device, to protect hammer use
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stainlessb
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What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Nov 27, 2023 1:13:38 GMT
I will look more tomorrow in the work by Jones. A quick scan shows mention of the No. x but no explanation.... but for now, my eyes are tired!
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tomiseksj
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Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,269
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Nov 27, 2023 1:18:49 GMT
I have a question I can not figure out the buttom line where it is a Number is there an explanation? If similar to U.S. RPO's, it could be the train number.
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rod222
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Posts: 9,937
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Nov 27, 2023 1:54:03 GMT
LIEGE-JONFOSSEThis is the smallest station in Liège, with only local trains stopping. It is situated near the city centre, and easily reachable by foot. linkBRUGGE (Bruges)West of Antwerp ANTWERP Line 59 to Ghent- Sint- Pieters Sint Niklaas Belsele Sinsai Lokeren Ghent sint pieters Then Line 50A to BRUGGE Hansbeke Bellem Aalter Maria-Salter beernem Oestkamp BRUGGE
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tobben63
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Stamp eat sleep repeat
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What I collect: I collect to much, world wide!
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Post by tobben63 on Nov 27, 2023 11:40:18 GMT
I have a question I can not figure out the buttom line where it is a Number is there an explanation? Could it be the number on the Cancel?
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Post by viking1234 on Nov 27, 2023 11:55:24 GMT
I have a question I can not figure out the buttom line where it is a Number is there an explanation? Could it be the number on the Cancel? Well, think we have to wait at the proffesionel railway entusiast to get the correct answer, it could be a train number, a track nbr, a wagon nr, so your guess is as good as any, I do not know the correct answer and have not found any informatio, Ithink we just have to wait for the correct answer.
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rod222
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Posts: 9,937
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Nov 27, 2023 11:59:25 GMT
This has me curious. VRESSE why a CDS? (Circular Date Stamp)
The nearest Train Station I have is PALISEUL (Line 166) Namur District (5 stops before BERTIX) getting down towards Luxembourg
Paliseul is about 15-20 Km from Vresse sur semois (to the west) So was the waybill prepared in Vresse, and carried to Paliseul by Tram? other means?
Does this explain the CDS cancellation?
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Post by viking1234 on Nov 27, 2023 11:59:38 GMT
I actually stumblede over what I think is a Box cancell with town and date stamp referred to as a T1. Please correct me if I am wrong.
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rod222
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Posts: 9,937
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Nov 27, 2023 12:17:10 GMT
I actually stumblede over what I think is a Box cancell with town and date stamp referred to as a T1. Please correct me if I am wrong. Not in my records. There is / was a Rail line YPRES to MENIN (MENEN) I need to view some more maps Maybe a private line? MENEN is a stop on the KORTRIJK to POPERINGE Line 69
Certainly looks like a MENIN box cancel.
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stainlessb
Member
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What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Nov 27, 2023 15:42:07 GMT
The obliteration is referred to in Jones as a T1, but there also seems to be a number of variations. Menin was a station on the Flandre-Occidentale Line, which was a private line until taken over by the state January 1, 1905,
The numeral- I find no definition aside from being mentioned as No. 1, or simply a numeral by itself. As Facteur can be translated to "Postman", so I suspect the number (with a date) is tied to the postal clerk/postman.
France cancelations had a number to indicate who the clerk was.
Jones does note that for some cancellations No. 1 is most common, No 2, less so, and that there was a No.3 that is hard to find.... howere, no mention of what the number signifies, so the above explanation is my guess!
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Post by viking1234 on Nov 27, 2023 15:55:55 GMT
The obliteration is referred to in Jones as a T1, but there also seems to be a number of variations. Menin was a station on the Flandre-Occidentale Line, which was a private line until taken over by the state January 1, 1905, The numeral- I find no definition aside from being mentioned as No. 1, or simply a numeral by itself. As Facteur can be translated to "Postman", so I suspect the number (with a date) is tied to the postal clerk/postman. France cancelations had a number to indicate who the clerk was. Jones does note that for some cancellations No. 1 is most common, No 2, less so, and that there was a No.3 that is hard to find.... howere, no mention of what the number signifies, so the above explanation is my guess! Thank you for taking you time to look it up. I thought the Nbr. might reffer to the engine the packet was transfered with, but it make sense what you come up with.
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rod222
Member
Posts: 9,937
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Nov 28, 2023 1:51:58 GMT
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Post by viking1234 on Nov 28, 2023 7:38:57 GMT
rod222Nice Collection thank you for sharing your pages, like the way you text, counterfits section is a must have collecting Belgium stamps. I think the reason for the huge number of counterfit/forgeries Belgium stamps have something to do with the paper, they do not use watermarks and I can not see other security meassures in the early stamps. I am trying to figure a way to mount the railway stamps, I think I start with the main numbers and then the postmarks, but still have a huge amount of Belgium stamps I need to mount first else I never finish.
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Post by viking1234 on Nov 28, 2023 8:12:32 GMT
I have been Looking at the Railway postmarks and I am not sure it is the clerks/postman nr in the lower part of the postmark. I think the goods might be tranferede to another sortingpost at the arrival station and transferede to another train or deliverede. Looking at the other postmarks, there is a departurer station top row a date month year or a timestamp, the bottom part is the arrival destination, what if the train depart ec. from Brussel and at the end station the train have to go to remise No 2 unload the gods, which is transferred to another train or it is the final destinations packhouse, the packet is picked up by the customer or deliverede to the final destination by other means. The train have to unload the cargo somewhere.
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rod222
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Posts: 9,937
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Nov 28, 2023 9:06:58 GMT
I have been Looking at the Railway postmarks and I am not sure it is the clerks/postman nr in the lower part of the postmark. I think the goods might be tranferede to another sortingpost at the arrival station and transferede to another train or deliverede. Looking at the other postmarks, there is a departurer station top row a date month year or a timestamp, the bottom part is the arrival destination, what if the train depart ec. from Brussel and at the end station the train have to go to remise No 2 unload the gods, which is transferred to another train or it is the final destinations packhouse, the packet is picked up by the customer or deliverede to the final destination by other means. The train have to unload the cargo somewhere. May we have an image of the PERFIN please? Opinion. The waybill dictates the voyage of the parcel, the cancel displays the originating departure. (and presumably the furthest point in that rail line towards the destination) Transfer points are also struck, but I am unsure if new stamps are added, at transfer points, which would make sense
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