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Post by gstamps on Apr 13, 2023 6:16:01 GMT
Hi Stanley, stainlessbI found the classification made by the expert Brun. Notice that the number 2 is the main element of differentiation (the bottom part of the number 2 is also important) I notice that he did not introduce the issue of "roulettes"/coins (IIIC) into the classification, but only sheets and booklets.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Apr 13, 2023 14:25:44 GMT
Hi George
Storch and Francon also discuss the foot of the "2", however, after going through the 500+ stamps , I found that the 'ball' of the 2 was a 'more' consistent than the base. I found numerous stamps that had the traits called out on the page I put together but the base could be questioned.
In putting the page together it came down to which traits were the most consistent and also easy/obvious to discern.
I plan on notating on the stamp mount page that IIIC was machine cut" (translation from Storch & Francon", rather than using 'roulette". I found one (1) and only one stamp with the broken R and the cut perfs (I did find another stamp with a broken R as well as one broken in not the quite same spot, but rough perfs.
I just missed out at auction acquiring De Lizeray work on the Semeuse.... I will keep looking
Does Brun have a separate publication? I know he collaborated with Storch and Francon on the Marianne (1p to 1900) book
Cheers Stan
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Post by gstamps on Apr 14, 2023 7:10:13 GMT
Hi Stanley You can find articles written by Brun on "philatelie.expert" Cheers George
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Post by stainlessb on Apr 14, 2023 14:46:36 GMT
George
Thank you
I have bookmarked!
Stan
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Post by stainlessb on Apr 21, 2023 21:00:02 GMT
plodding along with the #140 25c blue Semeuse.... once again, there is no consensus among the 'experts" regarding hoew many Types, what the traits ,ay be, as well as how many color variants there are. After going through over 500 stamps (pre-sort, secondary sort, final sort) I have ended up with handful of stamps that I feel fairly good about Type identification, although, even after the last examination, I still continue to send stamps to the"I'm no sure" pile. The Type 1B- Printed in pane sof 10 (2 x 5) for booklets. Like the Type 1A, the last tw hatch marks in the right hand are joined at the top forming a (somewhat) upside down "Y". Jean-Francois Brun (1977) does/did give details for the 1B, only the 1B. His focus seems mostly on the "2" (25 c). Storch and Francon (1981) had previously collaborated with Brun on Marianne (issues up to 1900). Maury, Ceres & Dallay and Yvert & Tellier, are "almost" in agreement on the #140, although Y&T provides much less images and some text to describe the differences. Y&T list fewer color variants. The ball and foot of the "2"; I found to be quite variable among the different types, and examples from the various references are not consistent. (it is also noted on some traits that they are not consistent) For the Type 1B, Storch and Francon indicate 2 colors for 1A in one area, then in a separate table list 6 color variants. Y&T and Maury Ceres & Dallay list only 'blue for 1B Below are 7 stamps before soaking in hot tap water with a drop of detergent for 10 minutes, followed by 10 minutes in a hot tap water rinse. "Hot" for my tap water is 138 - 140°F, though after 10 minutes in a Pyrex bowl had cooled to 118 -122°F. Stamps were then blotted on a cotton 'sack cloth" towel and placed in a Drying book (Showgard). I will group the front sides together, followed for backs . Below is after the 20 minutes (total) tap water soak. This did clean them up a bit and after re-examining #6 (from left) was removed as the hand hatch marks were now clear and were not connected at the top. then the stamps were placed in 3% peroxide for 10 minutes. (a filler for removed # has been added so stamps remain in sequence... even better if I'd put it in the correct place!). A bit more brightening, but not a dramatic change , but clearly lighter and darker shades of bliue. (BTW, the removed #5 I discovered the lower rung of the final "E" in REPUBLIQUE FRANCAISE was almost missing -although a break in the rung by the head is to be expected, the gap is much larger, and the final "E" looks more like an "F" The back of the stamps - the two left stamps have yelloish and paper, with the far right hte 'whitest" brownish some of the stains are gone, as is the hinge remnant. after peroxide, the off color paper (GC?) is only slightly off color, with #1 looking almost like most of the other stamps. GC paper are listed on the Type 1A, and 4, and yellowish paper on IIIB and IV. but not mention on 1B Far right is still the whitest of the bunch. As in the past i have opted to follow Maury Ceres & Dalay for the main layout. The Type 1B proved to be the most frustrating of the groups, in the 25c blue Semeuse and along with some plate flaws (including a couple of anneau lune) I will add the unlisted darker blue and what looks to be GC paper on a separate page. Fortunately the next several; stamps have limited Types and/or colors (at least until I read up some more)
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Post by stainlessb on Apr 22, 2023 17:39:47 GMT
finally the page with #140! The reason for the upside down stamp is because I do not believe it is correct, but "bleu-mettalique" is one of those colors which may get lost in translation. Growing up, 'metallic blue" was s sparkly blue. Michel and SG color samples are not really similar (blue, yes, similar, no) and the HEX version is close to neither. "Steel' blue may be a better translation (thank you Beryllium Guy for the dictionary!), which is a greyisg blue, which makes sense when one thinks of 'raw" steel. At any rate, the upside sown stamp is the most 'greyish blue" that I have with the traits of a 1A as it turned out, while going through the 1A, I found a 1B, which ended up being the stamp i selected for the page. Next, a page to show plate flaws and those catalogues (and) papers) not listed and so it goes
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Post by stainlessb on Apr 22, 2023 22:16:33 GMT
while working on a page of plate flaws of assorted and various types, the stamp below is perhaps one of the more damaged impressions I have come across, both REPUBLIQUE FRACAISE and POSTES have seen better days. What "Type" is anybodies guess.
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Post by gstamps on Apr 23, 2023 5:16:11 GMT
Hi stainlessbI only use the Yvert Tellier catalog for identification (less information compared to the specialized books you have) I think it is type IIIB.
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Post by stainlessb on Apr 23, 2023 14:38:37 GMT
Hi George
Yes it could be, I do see the "dot" in the lower part of the robe (left of the "D" in NORD. It has the thin inner frame line left of the 25c.... it is lacking the heavy shadow under the chin, but Storch & Fracon noted this was an inconsistent trait. The very worn die is what makes it most interesting for me.
I may have too many references LOL
Speaking of which I have located a copy of Fakes and Forgeries of the 20th Century French Postage Stamps, which hope will conyain some details regarding ther Nord and Paris forgeries. So far all i have is they are both listed as Type IV. I believe you mentioned the Nord forgery having a different perforation.i have found some variance, but inconclusive... the image themselves seem fine(?)
Cheers Stan
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Post by reena on Apr 23, 2023 17:38:04 GMT
In the envelope that I am currently wondering through I have a bunch of Sowers. Then I ran across all your work about them. Thank you for doing this. I will be learning more.
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Post by paul1 on Apr 26, 2023 15:16:06 GMT
I doubt that anything more of substance could be said about this issue - staggering how many minds have occupied themselves with the 'sower' and her appearance, but just a couple of pix attached of mine should anyone spot anything remarkable that hasn't already been noticed - hadn't realized that I had so many of this design. I think the earliest of them (SG 314 - 322) is possibly more artistic - the horizon and radiating sun have something that the later solid coloured designs lack. At a quick glance seems I don't have any feet on the 'ground' - perhaps they're less than common. This lot include typical dated post marks mostly in the years running up to the end of WW I, but I also notice one from 1935, which seems late since the series ended I think in 1919. 'Colours' of used stamps can be very subjective - washing, daylight, dirt etc. can all make for changes that may not relate to the original appearance of stamps, but I'm the least knowledgeable of the 'sower' - don't artists get the best jobs though. Am keeping this post simple, but will write more now with further comments about Ms. Mouchon's engraving.
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Post by paul1 on Apr 26, 2023 15:49:05 GMT
Back to the 'sower' designs - the attached pix show various denominations with a lined 'horizon' and radiating sun background, which may well all come from the first series SG 314 - 322, but please correct me pronto if that's wrong. No idea whether it was the designer O. Roty or the engraver E. Mouchon that was responsible for the change from an Arabic 'one' to what is possibly a Roman 'one', but the denomination figure for the 15c. value - in this early series - changed, then appears to have reverted back - the 1 Franc also appears as a Roman 'one'. This Roman 'one' is also on the 10c. pink in the attached picture. Also attached is a picture of a 65c. value - in pink - with a barred cancel and overprint of 50c. - not from the early issues I don't think, and is it likely to be for the French Colonies rather than the home market? Lastly, there's what appears to be an ultramarine coloured 'sower' on a greyish background - with horizon (but no radiating sun) - with value of 0.30. My SG catalogue doesn't appear to come forward enough to help with this one - though believe the Franc was re-valued c. 1960, so assume this is one of the new value stamps, and not from the early C20 values. Any help with this one will be appreciated. Many thanks for looking.
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renden
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Post by renden on Apr 26, 2023 21:45:47 GMT
paul1 your last row: Semeuse (Sower) 50c s 65c is MAURY 224 of 18/8/1927 the early one on the left is an early 1961 Maury 1234 Semeuse (sower) 0.30 (new franc) René I have both in inventory-FRANCE
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Post by stainlessb on Apr 26, 2023 21:47:27 GMT
The Sower series consisted of three types, Semeuse ligneé (first issued in 1903 with the lines in the background (ligneé). The S. ligneé was not not widely celebrated, there were those that thought the background lines made the Semeuse stand out less, as well as the 'fact" that seeds were not 'broadcast' into the wind....At the request of Postal Ministry a new design from l. Oscar Roty's design be made, which resulted in the 10c (red) Semeuse fond uni avec sol (plain bottom seeder with soil) was the fore-runner of Semeuse cameé (Cameo seeder... with a solid background).Issued in April 1906 it was not a "crowd" favorite, the criticisms being that the Semeuse was just made shorter atop the mound which made her look ...basically short and squat, and there was also a shoulder strap on the left arm that was referred to as the 'nipple'. The contrast was also criticized, so the Type I was only in print until May 1906 when it was replaced by the Type II which has much more contrast between semeuse and the background...still this did not satisfy the critics and was only printed until December 1906 (which is why you see fewer of these!)
At the further request from the Postal Ministry Merson was asked for the chiffres maigre (skinny figure) which removed the mound of soil, restoring the "svelte" figure of the Semeuse (and removing the nipple). Thus Semeuse cameé, was first issued in July 1906 in 10centimes and 35 centimes denomination. The different dies is the reason Semeuse ligneé has a different numeral "1" than the Semeuse cameé.
However the controversy did not stop there, and in 1907 the dies were retouched (re-engraved) by Jean-Baptiste Lhomme (I have not yet found anything explaining exactly why Mouchon did not retouch them...) The retouched dies resulted in the lettering - REPUBLIQUE FRANCAISE as well as POSTES being more robust. The Semeuse herself had the back side of the profile more defined (which has been described by some as the fatter Semeuse (as compared to the earlier skinny" version). This 'fatter" version continues throughout the S Cameé issues until 1927, However, to somewhat complicate things somewhat, the Semeuse ligneé issues were once again issued (concurrently with Semeuse cameé) starting in 1921
In 1926-27 were the first surcharged issues (revalued/overprinted ) which includes denominations of both the ligneé and cameé (the last cameé issue would be the 35c green revalued at 30c).
Your 65c rose ligneé revalues at 50c is Yvert # 224, issued August 1927 (there is a dark rose-carmine listed for the original issued stamp, but no mention of a color variant in the surcharged issue)
The last lignee issues (30c brown-red and 35c green) was the n issued in 1938
The final cameé, 50c blue-tourquise, were issued in 1937
The stamp(s) continued to be issued with surcharges until 1940
Your 0.30 Semeuse de Piel was issued in 1961 Yvert #1234A. A 0.20 issue (different colors, same design) was issued in 1960
That the variatious renditions have covered sich a wide wath of years makes them somewhat confusing to follow in the catalogues as most all are by date of issuance (even though in some cases the numbering jumps around)
Thanks for sharing your stamps!
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renden
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Post by renden on Apr 26, 2023 21:51:15 GMT
Sorry Stan stainlessb - I was giving my response at the same time as you - but not in a so expertise post LOL !! René I guess we are collaborators but you shine ++++++++++ !!
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Post by stainlessb on Apr 26, 2023 21:56:32 GMT
René no need to be sorry! We learn from everyone!!
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Post by paul1 on Apr 27, 2023 7:29:00 GMT
very big thanks to both - in particular to stainlessb (Stan) for such a comprehensive overview of the 'sower'/Semeuse series - such expertise - I shall print off those words and keep for reference. The 'sower' series are generally low value stamps that come when purchasing minor collections, so can be acquired inexpensively - and they do present an interesting area for study - as can be seen by the detailed interest in this thread. Thanks Rene for your input - lots of questions perhaps still unanswered about these denominations. I only have SG catalogue for France, and believe it or not it is dated 1961 !! - it gives me basic information, but I need to update by a few decades. Thanks again people - wonderful information.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Apr 27, 2023 15:12:57 GMT
paul1 I would suggest Yvert & Tellier or Maury Ceres & Dallay if you are looking for more details on Semeuse (and others) If you do decide to stay with SG, try to preview before getting... you may be disappointed that little has been added. Although SG and Scott are English, the French language catalogues contain the most information. I have the Specialized Scott Worldwide (2001) and it is printed in 4 columns per page. Semeuse gets a total of 10-3/4 " if space and is very limited on details. I was very disappointed with the Scott Specialized... maybe they have something 'more' focused that I have not found (they have a lot of publications0... but somewhat learning French has been fun as a side project!!
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Post by paul1 on Apr 27, 2023 19:01:10 GMT
thanks stainlessb (Stan) for the advice as to choice of catalogue - will bear all this good information in mind when buying. It's to be expected I suppose that French catalogues will offer the greater coverage since we're speaking of Gallic stamps, but would imagine there's only a limited amount of French language to learn - oh well, I see another trip to the Strand coming up to check out SG's coverage of the 'sower' ;-)
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renden
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Post by renden on Apr 27, 2023 19:10:07 GMT
thanks stainlessb (Stan) for the advice as to choice of catalogue - will bear all this good information in mind when buying. It's to be expected I suppose that French catalogues will offer the greater coverage since we're speaking of Gallic stamps, but would imagine there's only a limited amount of French language to learn - oh well, I see another trip to the Strand coming up to check out SG's coverage of the 'sower' ;-) I used MAURY and Scott - what a difference in expertise !! Since I am bilingual, no problems with french cats - I did not buy as many as Stan stainlessb who is my "expert" resident I have lots of pages (custom) done for FRANCE - they will be found in the Country thread
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Post by stainlessb on May 9, 2023 23:55:38 GMT
Although I have some final scanning/inspercting for any possible forgeries (now that I have more details), it is time to declare my current efforts with Yvert #140 done and time to move on. If I find a forgery i'' save it for another page, another day
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Post by stainlessb on May 11, 2023 22:40:51 GMT
Started page layout for France Semeuse cameé 5 c green (Yvert # 137). A much easier stamp for TYPES, color.... very subtle Maury) Green, Green-Yellow, Green-Blue and Blue-Black (Storch and Francon have the same general spectrum but refer to the green-black as simply dark green {vert fonce}.. which makes more sense). Y&T only lists Green and light green. Storch and Francon provide better trait information than Maury or Y&T. Both of which note the tail of the "Q" in REPUBLIQUE Type I is as shown below and the 'tail" is separated In the Type IIA the 'tail" is connected. As the plates became worn this gets a bit blurred in the Type I. [note Storch & Francon discuss a Type I and II for this denomination, with no mention of the Type II "A" designation. What seems more consistent is shown above (Type I left, Type II right). This trait seems to hold up better over time (printed from 1907 to 1921)
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Post by yendiss on May 13, 2023 10:10:31 GMT
Correction on my 'user name', Stan; yendiss. cheers, Sid
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Post by stainlessb on May 13, 2023 14:09:30 GMT
Sid It shall not happen again ! Stan
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Post by stainlessb on May 13, 2023 20:52:58 GMT
Working with the #137 Type I- out of 224stamps total (total after culling out tears, serious thins and creases) 186 were identified as Type I. This was the easy part. As mentioned in an earlier post, depending on which reference you use there are 2 - 4 nuances of 'green" with some variation (Storch & Francon) they add a pale green-blue (1921) and a pale green yellow (1920). there are also mention 5 paper types and an additional 3 types of GC paper (as I am somewhat jumping around in there 2 v olume reference I have not yet found a detailed discussion of paper, but what I have found doesn't go into great detail...). color nuances are also 'random" with respect to when printed, with 1917-18 listed as "vert variable (GC and GC blanc) I normally give stamps a bath to remove any paper remnants (which makes flaws more apparent_ and a peroxide 'dip" to counter any sulfurization. This time I did a rough sort by 'perceived" color nuance before bath-time.... so After placing all on Vario pages I'll go through the drill again. I have uploaded images from what I originally perceived as lightest to darkest, and then GC paper, and a small goup with anneau-lune (or somethiing). Green has been a difficyult color for me and a number of the stamps appear to have an 'underprint" (green on yellow-green etc...), this was common on Type Sage, but I have not found mention of it (yet) so for now I am trying to ignore. All I need is to select 4 stamps that seem to follow the variation(s) in nuance/shade.... How hard can this be?!? below GC (front) and back
The bottom left reverse is a no GC stamp for comparison and those stamps that show some anneau-lune (though none areamazing examples, and one of my "puffed wheat' whatever, and one that almost looks like Semeuse's bag is on fire.... I also scanned these at 600 dpi (I normally scan at 3200, but it was stated in another thread that the uploding process down-sizes images to 600... so maybe this will help in color translation. Comments always welcome!
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Post by philatelia on May 13, 2023 22:58:52 GMT
Nice specialty study, stainlessb A member of my local club wondered why I wanted so many duplicates. One of each type collectors may think we’re nuts, but I love studying an issue as you are doing. And your post helps illustrates why having a quantity to study is essential - you need examples in order to get an accurate sampling especially for shades. And it’s even better if they are from different sources - I mean not all from the same bundle, for example, although bundles can be a goldmine. I recently acquired some early Norwegian posthorns but I’m putting off studying them because I don’t have enough yet. I’ll stockpile them onto my Hagnar and Vario sheets until there are enough to work on. Ditto from some other areas I hope to study. But that gives me something to look forward to. At least most of my interests are fairly affordable - can’t easily do that with something like those gorgeous Chalons posted by DK and others and all the COGH triangles Beryllium Guy , vikingeck , JeffS share. Can you imagine having hundreds of THOSE for study? Whew! Thanks for keeping us posted on your Sower study. Great stuff!
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Post by stainlessb on May 13, 2023 23:36:43 GMT
thanks for the comments philateliaSometimes I think I'm nuts, butit is hard to get a 'feel" for the variants , colors , etc., with a small lot. I have spent much of the past 3 year (?!!) acquiring lots of duplicates. Many of the 'variants" may have only occurred in one or two positions on a plate, and some have these have proved elusive. Talking with dealers, seems most cater to the one of each. This does keep me out of trouble!!
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Post by stainlessb on May 13, 2023 23:53:06 GMT
so plodding along- here is a range of identified colors using PERFOMASTER software (measure perfs, dimensions, but is also a color comparator based on a user defined database. I have scanned in SG and Michel as well as some other color samples (digital hex samples)> While we could argue till 'the end of days"ther end of days" , as I am using the same scanner which is calibrated the same as my monitors then results should be consistent. The software (for those who don't know about is free, and a bit buggy, so patience is advised) but I think it a valuable tool, though at times is simply will not hold an open window of the results (why the one image is a bit different in format) . Colors listed in the screen shots below ending in -SG and -SG2 (different printings... and yes some variance)came from the SG coulor guide, -M from Michel, and other sources which have some sort of identifier. so, as a starting point- these are just starting points and not set in cement- color may not appear on YOUR monitor exactly as it does on mine (and quite often what I post looks different after posting, when compared to same image on my system (even side-by-side) and remember none of these stamps is leass than 100 years old! All scans at 600 (screen shot .png is lower.... maybe 79?) the more or less 'Green" The only one I have found with a 'yellow" tine Blue-green/geen blue (take your pick) and last a dark green - one a bit closer to a direct match (Delta E) and so it goes
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JeffS
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Post by JeffS on May 14, 2023 0:33:05 GMT
stainlessb Stanley, I find these color studies aided by computer technology fascinating. The French sowers with lined backgrounds are some of the first stamps I remember as an 8-year old collector. They are still really cool.
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Post by yendiss on May 14, 2023 21:21:08 GMT
Greetings ---- For those enthusiastic 'Sower' collectors who would like some more hunting for variety detail, check out semeuses.com. Originally written in French, I believe, because the translation is a bit 'fuzzy', it offers more printing and plate flaws. It's more than I can handle for me. happy hunting -- Sid
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