stanley64
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What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
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Post by stanley64 on May 17, 2023 9:19:48 GMT
Great work with the study of the French sower Stan ( stainlessb ), I for one know the effort involved in such endeavours. Curious though, is there a reason that you have not picked one specific area of the stamp for the colour sampling? Any colour analysis I have seen consistently selects a replicable area from each stamp for comparison. If, due to a cancellation or other anomaly, perhaps set them aside or do the analysis as a separate batch. As we have seen with other examples, even a fraction of a millimetre difference can alter the reading. Off the streets, out of trouble and loved ones basically know where you are; keep up the efforts... Have fun and happy collecting! P.S. The website shared by @vendiss is a winner, but here too I could find minimal discussion of paper types.
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stainlessb
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What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on May 17, 2023 14:10:32 GMT
hi Vince With these the solid backgrounds of many of the stamps can vary in the consistency of the applied ink or has a great deal of 'white noise" to steal a term from elsewhere., so I look for an area that seems 'more consistent" and away from any of the obliteration. I have moved my color field around, and made larger or smaller and often the results are very similar (at least same 1st color). I have the website yendiss shared and it has some excellent information, The paper is stil somewhat a mystery, though I think I have a idea which GC's are which based on the one mention in Storch & Francon Now to start separating the stamps using these color scans as guide posts. (and see how much additional variation I may come up with.
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stanley64
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What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
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Post by stanley64 on May 18, 2023 9:34:27 GMT
Appreciate the details Stan, if you are getting the same the colour variant regardless of area chosen I would think the analysis sound. For my own studies, I have not been so fortunate. As for the papers used for the French Sower issues, is it all Grande Consommation (G.C.) paper? From this website, worldstampsproject.org/france-1900-1940/ I could find no other, but seeing the back sides of the stamps you have shown, I think they might be more to the story... Have fun and happy collecting!
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on May 18, 2023 14:37:41 GMT
Good day Vince with some stamps, different areas will yields slightly different results, especially those that have a splotchy/patchy background- which could be from worn plates or maybe not enough ink was applied. Too much paper has a similar impact to ink from the obliteration. The GC paper seems to be of multiple types. Storch & Francon mentions (and this varies with the denomination) below is a list of paper types I have found mentioned, but no details GC, *GC was printed in the selvedge, but does anyone know if it was printed on all GC 'types"?GC blanc (white) GC chamois - looking up the color- below is the range, but I'd lean more toward the yellow tones GC chamois (avec manchette) ...(with cuff???) Papier verge ...which translates to "Yard paper" Papier mince transparent - thin/transparent - I have found stamps than when viewed from the back the front image (in reverse) is quite clear, but unsure whether this would qualify. Papier E Papier X (which seems to reference the method the gum was applied, and also on a very white paper, but positive iD would seem to be limited to mint stamps GC chamois fonce (dark) paier huilex (oily) Papier epais (thick) Papier jaunâtre (yellowish) papier gris (grey) I have not (yet, and maybe they are buried within the text somewhere)) found any details about paper types in Stoch & Francon's work beyond the description offered above (minus my comments) I f ANYONE reading this is aware of a paper, monograph, book, or any writing which goes into details please let us know!!
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Post by gstamps on May 18, 2023 20:59:42 GMT
stainlessb,GC paper was used during WWI due to the shortage of quality paper. GC is written on the top and bottom edges of the stamp sheet. GC can have different colors and I think this is "chamois": I don't have stamps on this paper but the advice of a French collector is to put a strong light behind the stamp and we see a thicker paper and therefore with the famous little diamonds in the structure of the paper. I took a picture of an old paper from 40 years ago to give you an impression of how it should look : I think that the paper with these diamonds (GC as the French call it) was also used for the Portuguese stamps of the Ceres type.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on May 18, 2023 22:11:45 GMT
Thank you George! I new the GC paper was a lower quality (less white) due to shortages caused by the war. I had not hear of the backlighting, but Vince ( stanley64) has good knowledge on the Portuguese Ceres stamps (and paper) so perhaps he will chime in on this. I have been using PERFOMASTERS color analysis this afternoon and have 5 small groups based on the results I posted a few messages ago in this thread. It is slow going, but I think I may have several examples of the papier jaunâtre, but I want to give them a peroxide bath to see if it isn't just a discoloration, and also do some before/after color comparisons to see if results change.
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stanley64
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What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
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Post by stanley64 on May 19, 2023 7:13:52 GMT
Good discussion Gents :-)
Based on my own readings and images seen, I would have to agree that the example shown by George ( gstamps ) is the GC chamois paper variant from Stan's list. However, I do not believe it to be lozenged or dotted paper; at least not what is seen in the Portuguese Ceres issues.
Indeed though, holding the stamp up to a strong light source will make the paper 'pop' and all will be revealed....
Have fun and happy collecting!
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Post by yendiss on May 19, 2023 12:11:26 GMT
papier verge translates to 'laid paper' --- the stamp shows light and dark parallel lines on the paper, in either a horizontal or or vertical direction.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on May 19, 2023 14:48:40 GMT
Thank you #yendiss for the clarification (my 'version" came from Google translate). I think I have seen this type of paper before.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on May 19, 2023 16:36:16 GMT
Back to color Greens are just simply hard!! With the Type Sage 5c stamps I relied to a large extent on postmarks as there was a near chronological order to different colors, and I could eliminate later colors with an earlier postmark. This Semeuse doesn't offer that as the colors seem to come and go, and later return... and I am not finding as many stamps with clear legible postdates. These five stamps (so far) are the closest to a "green-yellow". The closest match is Michel - Dark Yellow-Green (note stanley64 I had mis-labeled this as Dark Yellow-Blue when I originally scanned the color in to PERFOMASTER). It is 2 shades (horizontally) away from yellowish-Green (separated by pale yellow-green and green-celadon). From left-to right (in case my chicken scrawl is not legible). these don't look all that "yellow-green, but when vied under full spectrum or natural light next to others they do have a more yellowish quality.... but once again I am challenged by the color 'green' Delta E : deviation from an exact match [=0] 3.05, 4.75, 5.39, 5.85, 6.30 I did give these stamps a 10 minute soak in 3% hydrogen peroxide and the change in color was insignificant ( ± 0.12 or less). Id did remove a couple of small stains on the reverse. Paper here all seem to be the same (blanc) If any of the collectors of the Semeuse shouild have an example of a yellow-green #137, please post!
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Post by gstamps on May 20, 2023 6:41:28 GMT
Hi Stanley, stainlessbThe blackish yellow-green shade looks very different from the shades of green mentioned in the Yvert-Tellier catalog. I have only 2 stamps (vert fonce/vert-?) which I compared with those in the Michel Color Guide:
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on May 20, 2023 13:58:41 GMT
Yes, and the differences are subtle. I think Ridgeway, in The Standardization of Colors and Color Names, was spot on when he said "...but the nomenclature of colors remains vague and, for practical purposes, meaningless,..."
meanwhile, we attempt to 'match' our stamps up to the colors described by eyes from yesterday
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Jul 5, 2023 21:41:36 GMT
Thanks to gstamps , someone who contacted him regarding a #140 anneau-lune. He kindly relayed my address and I received today this very nice example! I cannot determine the Type because of the obliteration- parts look like a IIIB, but then other traits are wrong. None-the-less a very nice example ( look below the back hand!!!) a surprise in the mail!
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Aug 4, 2023 21:03:28 GMT
Another pf a number of interesting items in a lot I received today Stamped/canceled "OR" in a circle Anybody know what this is?
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Post by gstamps on Aug 4, 2023 22:49:28 GMT
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Aug 4, 2023 22:51:51 GMT
gstamps thanks! I did not know this? so, these would have been mailed at some placee designated to accept mail, but no post office available? If so, would their be a receiving postmark at the post office that received the mail to then deliver?
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Post by gstamps on Aug 4, 2023 23:29:55 GMT
stainlessb, I don't know for sure, but I think the OR was only applied in the province by the postal worker only for letters picked up by hand during his tour. The period of use begins with 1836 and I think until 1912.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Aug 4, 2023 23:36:49 GMT
gstamps interesting. I had not seen this until now. there are few other 'different' postal stampings I post (probably tomorrow....I've been stamping for most of thye sftaernoon and I need to get up and check on the garden (and just move around a bit)
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anglobob
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Post by anglobob on Aug 5, 2023 1:43:13 GMT
stainlessbOR Origine Rurale and also OL Origine Locale. Used when the postman collected letters on his round.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Sept 24, 2023 19:27:25 GMT
still working on sorting, organizing, and generally trying to get everything in a place I can find again at some point in the future without tearing my stamp area apart, I came upon a rouletted copy of Yvert #140, which is a Type IIIC. Maur, Storch & Francon both mention the' notch" in the right leg of the "R" in FRANCAISE. Y & T give the following text (no image) ... translated using Google "like type IIIB but the opposite of the loops of the R of FRENCH forms an acute angle". This stamp does exhibit the same trait as th eIIIB in the neck of the Semeus, and perhaps the "acute angle" is just Googles odd translation and this is referring to the 'notch. The notch is difficult to see without pretty strong magnification. At first I didn't think the trait was there, a tightly cropped fied on my scanner at 3200 dpi only gave a somewhat fuzzy inference that there was 'notch". I have included an image taken on my scope (and it is very subtle indeed! right side where right leg meets with upper "loop")
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Sept 24, 2023 21:40:01 GMT
Two in one day! Yvert #235 IIIC roulette, same traits as #140 (apparently printed with same 'plate'). Tis has some paper on th eback and looks a bit in need of a bath. I have noticed that the roulette cut stamps have little to no paper 'fibers' at the edge of the perf. I was wondering if being used would cause the fibers to be apparent, and despite how many years this issue (and the others) were in use, they are simply hard to find!
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Jan 16, 2024 21:40:42 GMT
I have now gone back through all of the Semeuse ligneé 15 c (Yvert 130) in search of any missed 'gems'. I did find another 8 mint copies, but only 1 Type IV roulette (knife cut sides), These stamps were printed and roulette cut in rolls of 600 (there may have been smaller rolls, but this is the only quantity I have seen), and were in production form July 1923 until December 1924. Despite almost one and a half years in production, these seem few and far between. Like the Type 1, the hat has no lines or points in the main field. Unlike all others, the printed image is 22.5 - 23.0 mm in height (where as all others are <22.5 mm), and there are only 4 hashmarks above the forearm (left) elbow, while all others have 5. I have gone thru approximately 600+ stamps, and I have one more envelope that needs to be rechecked. I have found that the rouletted stamps of any kind seem difficult to find and command a higher price. The 15c Semeuse would have been (I believe) the first ones and they may not have been popular, but that wouldn't account for why later stamps that were issued with roulette cut sides are seemingly scarce. I believe the rolls of stamps were used in some kind of dispenser. Below, everything is a match, the cancellation date fits within the production period, unfortunately the top is cut thru. The cut at the top is parallel to the bottom slice, and my guess is the dispenser wasn't set up exactly square... and there are probably more of these floating around. so- a filler
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Post by wvgm3 on Apr 1, 2024 0:53:26 GMT
Here are some Yv137 shade examples to show the range I have. At first, I thought positions 6 and 7 were the yellow-green shade stainlessb was looking for, but now that seems less clear. Perhaps, I should just scan them all, maybe 80-100 MNH and MH and probably several thousand used... Don't know whether I would wish that on anyone. Anyway lots of resources, if interested.
When I started looking for my Yv137 shades, I had only skimmed the last page of the Sower thread. It took me a couple of hours to read the entire thread. There was way too much information to process. I'll write another entry in a bit.
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Post by wvgm3 on Apr 1, 2024 1:22:13 GMT
The amount of effort stainlessb has spent on the Sower series so far in the last few years is simply amazing. If anyone is going to continue down that path, I would be happy to offer some resources from my collection that could help in the research. For example, I have lots and lots of coin dates (blocks of 4, or sometimes 6, with the date of printing of the sheet). These are all MNH or MH so shades and other characteristics of the various types would probably be clearer to examine. I have thousands of these coin dates, sometimes 20-100 of the same stamp with different printing dates. I have attached an example of Yv140 (which stainlessb has put a lot of time into). This happens be be one of the sparser groups. The dates definitely help with shades, though often shades change within a given year.
Secondly, I also have an extensive collection of millesimes (pairs or blocks with the last digit of the printing year on the gutter between the stamps). While this does not provide the detail of the day/month/year of the coin date, I imagine it could also be helpful. One of the tables that was reproduced from a sower reference (I think it was for Yv140), also had a column for the millesime, so these could be related to type and shade. I have attached my collection of Yv140 millesimes. These often include millesimes on GC paper, often with the manchette. As a note, I do have examples of GC manchettes on white GC paper, a question that was asked somewhere in this thread, but they are not nearly as common in my collection as the grayer or yellower GC papers.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Apr 1, 2024 14:38:37 GMT
very nice wvgm3 Have you found any plate flaws (incomplete or broken letterd) or tyo types adjacent to each other? This might offer a clue as to where in the print panes they occur (and perhaps using coin date, ehn this appeared. The coin date for when a shade appeared would also be helpful . as often all that is given in the catalogues is a year. Postmarks (dates) are not always helpful as they could be on stamps that were not used or sold immediately. Again, a very nice 'array" Thank you for posting!
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