darkormex
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Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,197
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
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Post by darkormex on Jun 13, 2020 23:17:53 GMT
To me, there is an obvious color difference between these two stamps, both of which are listed as Scott 269, 20 sen, ultramarine. In the Japan Sakura catalogue they are no. 233 but neither the Scott nor the Sakura catalog note a color variety. I have multiple copies of this stamp in both colors. Or, perhaps this is just a normal range of color variation for ultramarine. What do others think? Philatarium or khj, do either of you have specific knowledge of this stamp?
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khj
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Posts: 1,524
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Post by khj on Jun 14, 2020 2:11:20 GMT
[EDIT: please see subsequent posts for correct reply and disregard the reply I gave!]
It probably takes a Japan specialist to give the proper reply. This time period pre-dates my unused Japan collection that my mother gave me. So I don't have anything to confirm.
Do you have mint examples in the blue shade?
My observations from the limited 20th Century Far East Asian stamps that I do have unused/used examples, and for which no color variety is documented in the catalogs: some stamps printed in colors of purple, dark blue, blue-green... tend to vary on used stamps (trending toward blue), but I don't see it on unused stamps. So I have chalked it up as color changelings, without finding the actual ink components to confirm. Either due to light exposure or soaking in tap water too long? The "weaker" color shades are often accompanied by light/fading cancels, ink bleed/blur, paper toning... I'm one of those who wants to see a mint example of color variety before I can be convinced it isn't a color changeling. But I don't know much about printing, so I leave it up those knowledgeable about the printing process to point out what might have caused the right stamp during the printing/production process.
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darkormex
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Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,197
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
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Post by darkormex on Jun 14, 2020 2:59:50 GMT
khj , thank you for your reply on this. I really appreciate it and I have found an answer actually from a gentleman in a philately group I connected with on FB. He states, "According to the JSCA Specialized Catalog (Nissen), there was a deliberate change in printing inks in December 1941.There are two color varieties (ultramarine and dull blue) listed for the period prior to the ink change, and two (dull violet blue and grey-blue) afterward." and he goes on to state that multiple color varieties are listed for this issue in the JSCA Specialized Catalog. I guess I will need to obtain a copy! Anyway, here is another set of stamps to ponder if only for the wide color variation, which, in this case, Scott notes as no. 364 ultramarine, 364a. deep ultramarine and 364b.light blue. Also, 3 of these stamps seem to have roulette or rough perfs which are not Scott listed. Also, sorry to pester you on this. I am finding answers on the FB group too and as I get the answers I will update these threads in case others have similar questions about Japanese stamps in the future. Please don't feel as if you have to dig for answers for me and I really do appreciate your responses.
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Ryan
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Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,749
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Jun 14, 2020 3:08:05 GMT
I have a 2005 JSCA (Japanese Stamp Specialized Catalog) and it lists 3 colours for this issue (edit: Scott 269, Sakura 233) - dull ultramarine (Feb. 1, 1940), dull violet-blue (undated) and deep grey-blue (Dec. 1941). None of the three are valuable, ranging from catalogue minimum value as a used stamp to double that.
Ryan
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darkormex
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Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,197
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
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Post by darkormex on Jun 14, 2020 3:14:59 GMT
Ryan, thanks for the information. The gentleman I corresponded with said similar. He also noted that copies used on cover after WWII fetched a bit of a premium but there seemed to be no significant value increase if it were one color vs. another.
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khj
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Posts: 1,524
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Post by khj on Jun 14, 2020 3:27:41 GMT
"According to the JSCA Specialized Catalog (Nissen), there was a deliberate change in printing inks in December 1941.There are two color varieties (ultramarine and dull blue) listed for the period prior to the ink change, and two (dull violet blue and grey-blue) afterward." and he goes on to state that multiple color varieties are listed for this issue in the JSCA Specialized Catalog. I guess I will need to obtain a copy! Anyway, here is another set of stamps to ponder if only for the wide color variation, which, in this case, Scott notes as no. 364 ultramarine, 364a. deep ultramarine and 364b.light blue. Also, 3 of these stamps seem to have roulette or rough perfs which are not Scott listed. Yes, that issue has genuine color varieties. I saw them catalogued and I actually have them in mint condition (I first noticed these color varieties as my Mom had a few in her Japan collection, even though most of her collection was 1950s-1960s). They were also the first imperforate stamps I ever owned! Nice to see them side by side! And yes, please pass through the info from the FB group!
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salentin
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collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 6,506
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Post by salentin on Jun 14, 2020 7:30:42 GMT
Having only recently transformed my "Japan-hoard" into a collection,I was not aware of colour-variations
of the Showa 20 Sen from 1940. Have a few only,but here are mine:
The upper left is obviously different from the others. But there are also slight differences in between themore greyish ones. The lower two are overprints from/for Burma.
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darkormex
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Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,197
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
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Post by darkormex on Jun 14, 2020 17:32:10 GMT
It is a pretty stamp in either color, I think. I saw the Burma overprints on Colnect last night.
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darkormex
Member
Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,197
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
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Post by darkormex on Jun 28, 2020 23:44:31 GMT
More color questions. I am sorting through the latter part of the Showa series definitives and also the vocational series that started to be issued in 1948. According to Scott the below stamps, in order, left to right are no. 427 5y olive bister, no. 515 8y dark orange brown and the strip of 3 is also no. 515, dark orange brown for comparison. Clearly the middle stamp, the 8y, is not dark orange brown and closer to the 5y olive bister in color. Scott also identifies an 8y brown orange, Scott 430, not shown here. Is it possible that the 8y, no. 515 in the center was printed in the same color as the 5y oliver bister? A possible color error?
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salentin
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collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 6,506
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Post by salentin on Jun 29, 2020 7:24:36 GMT
Well,maybe.On first sight I would have guessed,that the left 8 Yen is the watermarked one Sc.430.But checking for the watermark might prove my guess wrong. What I know is: one should not take the colours described in catalogues too serious. Scott gives 430 the colour brown-orange,while for Michel it is orange-brown, Scott for 515 is dark-orange-brown,Michel brown-orange. So the choice is for the collector. This series must be a paradise (or maybe hell) for fly-speckers. I have just 8 of Sc.no.430.And not two of them look the same. They also differ widely in colour-intensity.But yours definitely looks like a different colour-tone. My guess is,there are too many colour-tones of this series,to list them in a general catalogue.
Having just two Sc.515,here mine:
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darkormex
Member
Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,197
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
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Post by darkormex on Jun 29, 2020 11:46:56 GMT
salentin, I checked watermarks on all of them and the 8y bister in question is indeed without watermark, so 515. I have only a couple of 430s and a handful of 515s including the ones above. They all are more dark orange brown than otherwise. I will try to post more this evening. There is another strip of 3 stamps with an unusual cancellation that I wanted to talk about anyway.
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Philatarium
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Los Angeles, CA
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What I collect: Primarily focused on Japan, but lots of other material catches my eye as well ...
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Post by Philatarium on Jun 29, 2020 18:55:32 GMT
darkormex : Per the JSCA: the 5-yen (Scott 427, JSCA 314) has 4 possible color options: -- olive-brown -- yellow-brown -- bistre -- olive-sepia the 8-yen (Scott 515, JSCA 328) has 3 color options: -- deep orange-brown -- yellow-brown -- orange-brown So, 'yellow-brown' is in common with both stamps. And I'm sure you've noted this already, but there are 2 face-similar stamps for the 8-yen. The 515 is unwatermarked, and the watermarked type is Scott 430, JSCA 317. For the sake of completeness, that watermarked stamp (Scott 430, JSCA 317) has 3 color options: -- chestnut -- red-brown -- light brown -- orange-brown - - - - - Having now looked at your pic a lot, both last night and this morning, is it just me, or is there a slight difference between the left and middle stamp? It looks to me like there is a hint more brown in the middle stamp. If so, that may make this relevant: In my post here, I'm using the English color names that the JSCA supplies in the catalog listing. However, I do see that the Japanese 'yellow-brown' description is not identical. For the Scott 427, JSCA 314 (your left stamp), the yellow-brown listing is described as: 茶褐 - which are the characters for 'brown' and 'yellow', in that order while with the middle stamp (Scott 515, JSCA 328), the 'yellow-brown' is described as: 黄味茶 - 'yellow' '-ish' 'brown' So, a difference in nuance between the 2 color descriptions in Japanese, *and* 2 different characters for 'yellow': 褐 vs 黄 And with that, we have sailed far past any knowledge I may have ever had about the Japanese language, so I am not able to explain that nuance. I suspect the 褐 character has to do with 'liver', but I'm tapped out. Perhaps one of the other participants can fill in the details a bit. But, to summarize, no, I don't think you have a printing error with the middle stamp. Just a very nice example of the color variations that occur with Japanese definitive series around the time of WW2 and the subsequent occupation and reconstruction.
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darkormex
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Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,197
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
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Post by darkormex on Jun 29, 2020 19:02:38 GMT
The Hanja of that gives the following definition: 褐 털베 갈, 굵은 베 갈, 천한사람 갈, 갈옷 갈, coarse woolen cloth; dull, dark (15) 勹 匕 日 初 褐色 갈색 brown 褐炭 갈탄 brown coal 褐炭 갈탄 lignite
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