skid
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What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Mar 27, 2024 0:58:22 GMT
Might be fiscal use. If I remember correctly, there was a short period where the FSF could be used as fiscals.
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redkiwi
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Post by redkiwi on Mar 27, 2024 6:02:24 GMT
Here then are a couple of FSF but with Manuscript cancels. I think the 1d may be Kohu Kohu I could go with that .... but initials on 2d even if read as C W, near impossible to allocate. Any thoughts I have looked thru' AR Marshalls book - "New Zealand Postal Manuscripts" and don't see it in there at all. So no go I'm afraid! Marshall's last paragraph in the above book does say: Unidentified Manuscripts"Some mention must be made of the very large numbers of manuscripts which are not identifiable with crosses, dates, letters, numbers etc as the postal cancellation. Many of these undoubtedly belong in APPENDEX 1 because they must represent Manuscript Cancellations from some of the very many post offices where manuscript is possible but from where no manuscript has yet been identified. Even when on cover this type of manuscript makes it virtually impossible to identify the office of origin although, if other markings are present these may narrow the choice to a particular Postal District".Dave That Marshall book is another I have to track down. Here's one that I think may be 'Caversham', but never confirmed. I have a few more that I doubt I'll identify. Will post when I have scans.
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redkiwi
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Post by redkiwi on Mar 27, 2024 6:05:37 GMT
And another unknown oblit:
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DK
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Post by DK on Mar 27, 2024 6:12:08 GMT
Might be fiscal use. If I remember correctly, there was a short period where the FSF could be used as fiscals. Yes. It may well be fiscal use skid. I cannot associate it with a postal manuscript for an office at all currently. Dave
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Mar 27, 2024 6:31:48 GMT
Here's one that I think may be 'Caversham', but never confirmed. I have a feeling that it may be 'Caernavon'. Marshall's book has one very similar: Wooders lists Carnavon as: Palmerston North Postal District Opened 01/01/1877 Closed 30/09/1936 Manuscript rated a '9' Note: There is no manuscript shown in Marshall's book for Caversham. Wooders has a '?' for a manuscript for Caversham. Dave
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redkiwi
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Post by redkiwi on Mar 27, 2024 8:05:19 GMT
Here's one that I think may be 'Caversham', but never confirmed. I have a feeling that it may be 'Caernavon'. Marshall's book has one very similar: Wooders lists Carnavon as: Palmerston North Postal District Opened 01/01/1877 Closed 30/09/1936 Manuscript rated a '9' Note: There is no manuscript shown in Marshall's book for Caversham. Wooders has a '?' for a manuscript for Caversham. Dave That's a great spot, Dave. Thank you. Three more I've not been able to ID:
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redkiwi
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Post by redkiwi on Mar 27, 2024 8:08:51 GMT
And, another oblit listed in PSoNZ vol. III as unknown. This one is odd, given how distinctive it is I would have thought it would have been readily IDed. Perhaps there's new info since the publication of vol. III ...? I guessed at Kowai Pass based on the initials and the time period that this stamp was likely used (it's printed on Large Star WM papers, so circa 1875), but just a guess.
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Mar 27, 2024 18:43:18 GMT
Three more I've not been able to ID: The two 1d lilacs look as though they were together at some point. Same worn PB '11' of Ahuriri (Napier) and the same handwriting of the office name. I haven't worked out where it is yet tho'. The 2d is possibly 'Mauriceville'. Wooders states: Masterton Postal District Opened 01/07/1876 Closed 01/12/1898 Manuscript ? So the dates match ok. Marshall lists Mauriceville but does not have an image of its manuscript. It states it is possible it used an m/s prior to receiving its 'A' class canceller. So, a bit circumstantial currently but looks ok for the time being. Dave
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Mar 27, 2024 18:54:21 GMT
And, another oblit listed in PSoNZ vol. III as unknown. This one is odd, given how distinctive it is I would have thought it would have been readily IDed. Perhaps there's new info since the publication of vol. III ...? I guessed at Kowai Pass based on the initials and the time period that this stamp was likely used (it's printed on Large Star WM papers, so circa 1875), but just a guess. Of all the options available I would agree with Kowai Pass. Vol.3 of the RPSNZ volumes shows an image of it under 'Unidentified' on page 86 in the section entitled 'Postal District Cancellations'. But doesn't mention it otherwise. The Postmasters in the Christchurch Postal District area produced quite a few of these homemade obliterators. They used whatever that came to hand. Cork was commonly used but also wood and in at least one case, a steel bolt. Otherwise we are guessing here, but Kowai Pass seems to fit amongst those offices around the country with a 2-word placename, that were open at the right time. Dave
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xacs
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Post by xacs on Mar 27, 2024 19:25:16 GMT
Here's one that I think may be 'Caversham', but never confirmed. I have a feeling that it may be 'Caernavon'. Dave I don't think we have either Caversham or Caernavon. Simply can't get the letters to fit. I have a feeling that whatever it is, it starts off stamp to the left and we are not looking at a capital "C" as first letter. There is a small touch of ink on perf just below date which could be from another letter? This would also balance the manuscript better with the date. But sorry, no actual suggestions yet.
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Mar 27, 2024 19:40:11 GMT
Hmmm, I see what you are saying. - but here is a comparison of the m/s with Marshall's image of the Caernavon m/s. Close - but no cigar ? Dave
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Mar 27, 2024 22:43:42 GMT
Sc# 62 1881 A10 02d Accountancy Single ring Pmk with "P i" could be one of 53
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xacs
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Post by xacs on Mar 27, 2024 23:15:40 GMT
As an image, yes it appears to look similar but if we analyse the script itself it tells a different story.
If we take the first letter as a large 'C' (which it may not be) it is odd that this has curved back on itself rather than flow in to the next letter. Not unknown but certainly not typical. The second letter has had to be linked with new stroke and may be an 'a' or 'o'. The linkage from this to the next does not have as defined a downward angle as what is possibly the second 'a', but the difference could be explained by the transition to different letters. I am tending towards the second letter being an'o'. The few squiggles that lie between this and what I am assuming to be an 'a', look to be either a 'w' or combination of 'u and r'. The downstroke and subsequent connecting stroke of the 'a' suggests that the last visible letter is either an 'n' or 'm'. It could also be an 'r' but then the previous possible 'r' is formed in entirely different way, which would suggest the 'a' is preceeded by a 'w'.
Now if this hasn't completely confused everybody, try and read what is there as 'Cowan' (if we have a big 'C'). Another thought was that the first letter is the right hand side of a capital 'H' and we have "Howar(d)" or "Hawar(den)" but neither of these were open in 1882?
Sorry, this helps only to explain what it is not but doesn't help with what it is.
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Mar 28, 2024 0:45:54 GMT
Dealing with unknowns - here are a couple more unidentified oblits on a couple of FSF : Dave
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DK
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Post by DK on Mar 28, 2024 0:49:35 GMT
And a few known ones : 7-bar oblit of Auckland Postal District - number 10 of HamiltonAnd ditto with a 10 of Hamilton and what looks like a 53 of Ngaruawahia
I have a '43' of Opotiki as well, but that one is on a late usage Chalon. Dave
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Mar 28, 2024 1:09:12 GMT
A part set of the FSF with Perkins Bacon obliterators : NB: Not all obliterators still in service after the Chalon period - notably 10 of Wellington & 12 of Wanganui Auckland's ' 1' may also have ceased by this time? Hokianga's (Rawene) ' 3' was still going at this time however as I have one on an SSF 3d. Rangitikei's ' 13' is rare on any stamp Nelson's ' 14' was around at this time I believe but I do not seem to have one. The PB obliterators were sent out from London with the Chalon Plates in 1854. They were numbered 1 - 18 and came in pairs. Dave
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Mar 28, 2024 1:21:05 GMT
A couple of m/s for Clayton - I believe these two are Ashburton. 1 with an m/s 'a' and 1 with an 'a n' both with a large 'C' oblit of Canterbury : and an unknown one with a large 'C' oblit of Canterbury and m/s of '1-2 3-' ?? Dave
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Mar 28, 2024 1:25:05 GMT
Sc# 62 1881 A10 02d Accountancy Single ring Pmk with "P i" could be one of 53 That is a nice copy of the accountancy mark Rod. The other "Single ring Pmk with "P i" " is actually an 'A' class town cancel. Too difficult to tell for which township it is for tho'. Dave
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xacs
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Post by xacs on Mar 28, 2024 8:10:28 GMT
A part set of the FSF with Perkins Bacon obliterators : NB: Not all obliterators still in service after the Chalon period - notably 10 of Wellington & 12 of Wanganui Auckland's ' 1' may also have ceased by this time? Hokianga's (Rawene) ' 3' was still going at this time however as I have one on an SSF 3d. Rangitikei's ' 13' is rare on any stamp Nelson's ' 14' was around at this time I believe but I do not seem to have one. The PB obliterators were sent out from London with the Chalon Plates in 1854. They were numbered 1 - 18 and came in pairs. Dave Hey Dave, great group of this series of PB obliterators on First Sidefaces. I only have a few and not nearly as clear as these. Probably the nicest one shown here also happens to be an example of the damaged number 10 with '0' missing. Illustrated in RPSNZ Vol III, pg 38. No.31. Sorry, poor image as just took photo on phone in bad light.
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redkiwi
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Post by redkiwi on Mar 28, 2024 8:20:14 GMT
A part set of the FSF with Perkins Bacon obliterators : NB: Not all obliterators still in service after the Chalon period - notably 10 of Wellington & 12 of Wanganui Auckland's ' 1' may also have ceased by this time? Hokianga's (Rawene) ' 3' was still going at this time however as I have one on an SSF 3d. Rangitikei's ' 13' is rare on any stamp Nelson's ' 14' was around at this time I believe but I do not seem to have one. The PB obliterators were sent out from London with the Chalon Plates in 1854. They were numbered 1 - 18 and came in pairs. Dave A nice set, Dave. I've not seen the PB 1 on a FSF. I think it was likely retired by 1874 given the other oblits and cancels in operation at that time. But, you never can be sure ...
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xacs
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Post by xacs on Mar 28, 2024 8:21:20 GMT
Sc# 62 1881 A10 02d Accountancy Single ring Pmk with "P i" could be one of 53 That is a nice copy of the accountancy mark Rod. The other "Single ring Pmk with "P i" " is actually an 'A' class town cancel. Too difficult to tell for which township it is for tho'. Dave Gut feeling it might be OPUNAKI 'A' Class cancel, not sure why. You could probably narrow down the possibilities if look at what type of A class cancel it is, this looks like a Type 1(a) with large "N-Z". Just took a look in Craddock's "'A' Class and Allied Datestamps of New Zealand" to confirm if this is the right type and wouldn't you know it he uses OPUNAKI itself as example of this type, so could compare to see if fits.
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redkiwi
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Post by redkiwi on Mar 28, 2024 8:23:47 GMT
Three more I've not been able to ID: The two 1d lilacs look as though they were together at some point. Same worn PB '11' of Ahuriri (Napier) and the same handwriting of the office name. I haven't worked out where it is yet tho'. The 2d is possibly 'Mauriceville'. Wooders states: Masterton Postal District Opened 01/07/1876 Closed 01/12/1898 Manuscript ? So the dates match ok. Marshall lists Mauriceville but does not have an image of its manuscript. It states it is possible it used an m/s prior to receiving its 'A' class canceller. So, a bit circumstantial currently but looks ok for the time being. Dave Mauriceville looks very plausible. Thank you for looking that up. And yes, the two 1ds do look as if they go together, but I've not been able to find a match despite knowing the PD where the PO is likely located. Manuscript cancels can be tough, but fun.
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redkiwi
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Post by redkiwi on Mar 28, 2024 8:26:18 GMT
I have a feeling that it may be 'Caernavon'. Dave I don't think we have either Caversham or Caernavon. Simply can't get the letters to fit. I have a feeling that whatever it is, it starts off stamp to the left and we are not looking at a capital "C" as first letter. There is a small touch of ink on perf just below date which could be from another letter? This would also balance the manuscript better with the date. But sorry, no actual suggestions yet. A good, sharp eye there, xacs. Appreciate you helping on this one. RK
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Mar 28, 2024 11:50:06 GMT
xacs Quote : "Gut feeling it might be OPUNAKI 'A' Class cancel, not sure why. You could probably narrow down the possibilities if look at what type of A class cancel it is, this looks like a Type 1(a) with large "N-Z". Just took a look in Craddock's "'A' Class and Allied Datestamps of New Zealand" to confirm if this is the right type and wouldn't you know it he uses OPUNAKI itself as example of this type, so could compare to see if fits." ------------------- Nice suggestion, I had considered "PU" in the text string, but had 141 options in the Pmk database, so I opted to stay with Pi Thanks a bunch! I like that suggestion. PostmasterGS is the only member I know here, that can slide one Pmk over another.
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Mar 28, 2024 19:33:04 GMT
Probably the nicest one shown here also happens to be an example of the damaged number 10 with '0' missing. Illustrated in RPSNZ Vol III, pg 38. No.31. Sorry, poor image as just took photo on phone in bad light. That is a great copy of the damaged '10' formerly of Wellington. Believed used at 'Hutt'. I note that vol.3 of RPSNZ handbooks states the following about it: " No.31 has been seen on postage stamps of the second 'sideface' issue. It is known cancelling a stamp on a cover sent from Hutt to Napier, with date stamps of Hutt and Wellington ..." Well that is obviously old news then! as you have a very clear example on the 2d FSF, and, I believe I have one on a Chalon (off to look at my books for it). Dave
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DK
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Post by DK on Mar 28, 2024 19:49:07 GMT
Found it! Not as nice a strike as your one Clayton, but an example of the damaged PB '10' used at the Hutt on a Chalon none the less : And side by side with your 2d: Dave
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DK
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Post by DK on Mar 28, 2024 21:54:32 GMT
I was playing around with Rod's 2d lilac 'Accountancy' cancel - the one with a partial 'A' class on it above. Rod mentioned that someone on this board could overlap images - "PostmasterGS is the only member I know here, that can slide one Pmk over another".Well, that was a challenge, wasn't it, lol
How's this?
Pretty close I'd say! Dave
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Mar 28, 2024 23:03:54 GMT
I was playing around with Rod's 2d lilac 'Accountancy' cancel - the one with a partial 'A' class on it above. Rod mentioned that someone on this board could overlap images - "PostmasterGS is the only member I know here, that can slide one Pmk over another".Well, that was a challenge, wasn't it, lol
How's this?Pretty close I'd say! Dave DKMan! wipe the smile from my face (If you can) Challenge accepted, and knocked out of the Park ! Bravo! Dave You're a legend. I gotta tell you, that tickled me ! Fabulous!
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redkiwi
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Post by redkiwi on May 8, 2024 15:02:23 GMT
Found it! Not as nice a strike as your one Clayton, but an example of the damaged PB '10' used at the Hutt on a Chalon none the less : And side by side with your 2d: Dave Adding one more example of the broken '10' on a FSF, acquired on Trademe:
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redkiwi
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Post by redkiwi on May 8, 2024 15:13:01 GMT
I added the block on the left to my FSF collection today. FSF mint blocks are surprisingly scarce, and expensive when they do appear.
CP lists three shades for the C2f comb perf 12 x 11½ - Pale Rose; Rose; Deep Rose. I'm a bit wary of shades on items that are nearly 150 years old, but these blocks are seemingly distinct enough to be classified as different shades. Therefore, I would go with 'Pale Rose' for the left block and 'Rose' for the right.
Both show very clearly the "longer perf" commonly left by the comb perf machine between the last hole of the vertical row and the top of the horizontal row on the stamp below.
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