skid
Member 
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
|
Post by skid on Apr 17, 2021 2:44:16 GMT
Here is probably my last post on these Hausberg reprints. I looked at my other denominations and found that my 4d was also on thin card/thick paper. So the last 2d and the 4d in the scans are on thin card/thick paper (together on the right) and the others are on the standard white thick card. The 4d looks a bit less clear than the others, but I am not sure what that means. For the other denominations the thin card/thick paper versions are much less common than the thick card. This suggests that less were produced. Perhaps the sheets for cleaning the plates were on thin card/thick paper and the 20+6 were on the standard thick card of the Hausbergs. The 2d were so many that they used two or more sources of thick card, some where on thick white card and some on thick toned card (or the toning may be just age). The 4d could be a proof, but the quality does not look good enough. Although, the paper of the 2d and the 4d looks quite different. The poor quality of the 4d print might be due to the paper texture, which appears to be a bit rougher. (could always be a fake, simple photocopy on thin card/thick paper) I just checked page 246 Figure 17.18 of Odenweller and the 4d Hausburg prints he shows have the same poor printing with white specks everywhere. This would match what Ken Lynch would call the "Reproductions for Postal Department archives", which were on rather rough paper and used for monitoring the clean up. Which are different from the Hausberg reprints, which were on the thick card. But where does my thin card/thick paper 2d come from if it is not part of the Jolliffe reprints put in the book because it is not from the appropriate rows (it is 2d Plate 11, Row 13 No 2 and Jolliffe put rows 14-20 in the book). I did a tinfoil test on the 2d thin card/thick paper and the "New Zealand" and value came out as an impression, but not other detail. This was similar to a Hausburg that I also tried (the 4d showed very little). (this is the first time I have done the tinfoil test so I am not sure what to expect, particularly from card) I think this suggests that the 2d thin card/thick paper is not a photo copy. The 4d might be, but the paper looks authentic. (Any chance of getting a scan of the back of a plate or die proof to see what the paper looks like? I don't think this will be that useful) Scans of the back of thick paper/thin card so called Hausberg reprints (which are probably Reproductions for Postal Department archives) would be useful to see if the paper is similar to my 4d or my 2d. My best guess is that the 2d thin card/thick paper is a Jolliffe from the reprints not included in the book. Sorry for all the edits, but I keep thinking of things.  
 |
|
murfz1
Member
Posts: 51
What I collect: New Zealand Chalons and Associated Material
|
Post by murfz1 on Apr 19, 2021 17:46:11 GMT
(Any chance of getting a scan of the back of a plate or die proof to see what the paper looks like? I don't think this will be that useful) Scans of the back of thick paper/thin card so called Hausberg reprints (which are probably Reproductions for Postal Department archives) would be useful to see if the paper is similar to my 4d or my 2d. , included is the front and back of a certified Perkins 2d Proof, I brought this off "Grant" and had Bob Odenweller do the Cert. These are all on my website "www.andrewsnzstamps.com" all images are of stamps in my collection with a large number certified. One of all denominations of my reprints have a cert as shown. 2d London Proof Pair Front  , 2d London Proof Pair Back  , 2d Hausberg Pair  Sorry do not have a scan of the 2d Pair on hand. Hope this helps. Andrew |
|
skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
|
Post by skid on Apr 19, 2021 19:54:29 GMT
Thanks Andrew. This helps. Your website is great, but some of the scans are (understandably due to data limits) not clear enough for what i am trying to do. I would much appreciate a high resolution scan of the front and back of your certified block of 8 4d as well. I assume these "medium card stock" are on thick card typical of the Hausbergs and not thin card/thick paper like my 4d, confirmation would be appreciated. I put your proofs side by side with my thin card/thick paper 2d.  |
|
skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
|
Post by skid on Apr 20, 2021 1:29:05 GMT
I believe that the 'Green' reprints were produced for an Exhibition in 1980. Blue ones also exist. Dave Lee and Watts (2009) note that the Arnart Co produced 1200 sheets of the 2d Hausberg in green. It could be that.  |
|
murfz1
Member
Posts: 51
What I collect: New Zealand Chalons and Associated Material
|
Post by murfz1 on May 3, 2021 10:14:48 GMT
Skid (Mark) you asked: "Hi Andrew, I was looking at the reference material on your webpage and had a couple of questions. I noted in the section on Re-entries from the The Postage Stamps of New Zealand Vol. I that they have white marks in the value tablets similar to the Hausberg printing/cleaning issues on paper, but it is not seen on the Hausberg reprints on card. I don’t have a copy of this book and was wondering if it was just poor reproduction for the book or something else. Is there any information about where the images came from. " Mark the enlargements illustrating the re-entries were prepared from the proof sheets of 1906."You also note that the Postage Stamps of New Zealand Vol.I has to pull-out prints of the damaged plates "Plate A" and "Plate B". Is this a reproduction of the Jolliffe prints for the book or did they create prints from the plates? What type of paper is it on and how thick is it? " The pull-outs of the damaged plates "Plate A" and "Plate B" are reproductions and have been made from the black prints from the plates included in "The History of New Zealand Stamps" by William Jolliffe. Scans as shown below, these pull-out prints are on what looks like photographic paper/card and have a gloss finish. (unlike any other examples)  For everyone's interest I have added to extracts from "The Postage Stamps of New Zealand Vol. I (pages 33 & 34) on the process that was the cause of the Re-entry stamps ....quite interesting!
 Regards Andrew |
|
skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
|
Post by skid on May 3, 2021 14:40:22 GMT
Mark the enlargements illustrating the re-entries were prepared from the proof sheets of 1906. Thanks Andrew, The information is very helpful. Much appreciated. Are the 1906 proofs you are referring to the ones on card sent to Hausberg or the ones on paper, possibly used to clean or test the plate before creating the ones on card, or it does not say? Were they taken from the samples held in the Postal Department Archives? I would appreciate it if you post a scan of p. 86 of PSNZ, Vol I, which has some interesting information about the reprints. I guess I should try and get a copy of PSNZ, Vol I, but it is very expensive (I have Vol II). Regards, Mark PS. I think I have a cancellation. similar to your "bag seal" and will post it when I get a chance to scan it. |
|
DK
Member
Posts: 1,532
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
|
Post by DK on May 14, 2021 23:40:08 GMT
Mark, Here are those 1d reprints I have on wove unwatermarked paper.   I believe these to be @(c) in Lynch's book : @(c) Reproductions for Postal Department Archives 1906"These reproductions (in black on medium wove paper, creamish toned and rather rough) are thought to have been printed to monitor the cleanup of the plates in readiness for printing the reproductions for Hausburg in @(d) below .... " @(d) below refers to the actual reprints on thick card. Dave |
|
skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
|
Post by skid on May 15, 2021 1:08:50 GMT
Mark, Here are those 1d reprints I have on wove unwatermarked paper. I believe these to be @(c) in Lynch's book : @(c) Reproductions for Postal Department Archives 1906"These reproductions (in black on medium wove paper, creamish toned and rather rough) are thought to have been printed to monitor the cleanup of the plates in readiness for printing the reproductions for Hausburg in @(d) below .... " @(d) below refers to the actual reprints on thick card. Dave I agree, it probably is the @(c) in Lynch's book, but I am still investigating whether they are the same as the Reproductions for Postal Department Archives 1906 Since the paper is rougher than the card, I think it causes the print to be worse, see the spots in the ink around the value text. Compare it with the one on Andrews page, which is on card. |
|
DK
Member
Posts: 1,532
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
|
Post by DK on May 15, 2021 1:32:50 GMT
I agree, it probably is the @(c) in Lynch's book, but I am still investigating whether they are the same as the Reproductions for Postal Department Archives 1906 Since the paper is rougher than the card, I think it causes the print to be worse, see the spots in the ink around the value text. Compare it with the one on Andrews page, which is on card. Do you mean this one Mark?  Dave |
|
skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
|
Post by skid on May 15, 2021 2:27:08 GMT
I agree, it probably is the @(c) in Lynch's book, but I am still investigating whether they are the same as the Reproductions for Postal Department Archives 1906 Since the paper is rougher than the card, I think it causes the print to be worse, see the spots in the ink around the value text. Compare it with the one on Andrews page, which is on card. Do you mean this one Mark? Dave I was meaning the block of 8, but this is even better since it is the same position. I have combined them with card on top and paper on bottom. The paper has more white spots in the black around the value, but the card has them as well.  |
|
gc
Member
Posts: 289
|
Post by gc on May 21, 2021 7:32:02 GMT
Hi all Unfortunately I don't have any large Hausburg blocks of the 1d or 2d plate 1. However I do have these blocks of 108 ( sorry my scanner is too small and part of the bottom is cut off ). I also have a complete sheet of 240 of the 2d plate 11 The back scan is the back of the large one shilling block I have also attached a block of 9 I sold last year which was on thin paper. Cheers Grant       |
|
skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
|
Post by skid on May 21, 2021 18:00:03 GMT
Thanks Grant, those are impressive. Do you remember if the bock of 9 2d Plate II were on the toned roughish paper or paper more similar to the Jolliffe reprints?
|
|
gc
Member
Posts: 289
|
Post by gc on May 21, 2021 20:09:35 GMT
Hi Mark
As far as I can remember, very clean thin paper, white in appearance, definitely not toned roughish paper.
Cheers Grant
|
|
DK
Member
Posts: 1,532
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
|
Post by DK on May 22, 2021 0:23:29 GMT
Unfortunately I don't have any large Hausburg blocks of the 1d or 2d plate 1. However I do have these blocks of 108 ( sorry my scanner is too small and part of the bottom is cut off ). I also have a complete sheet of 240 of the 2d plate 11. The back scan is the back of the large one shilling block I have also attached a block of 9 I sold last year which was on thin paper. As usual Grant, very nice. :-) Where did your manage to pick up such large blocks (of the same size) from? Very impressive indeed. Dave |
|
gc
Member
Posts: 289
|
Post by gc on May 22, 2021 1:12:16 GMT
Hi Dave
Looking back through my records, I got those it 2014 at $440.00 each !!!! Yes I had a bid very high.
Cheers Grant
|
|
skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
|
Post by skid on May 25, 2021 15:51:41 GMT
I obtained two blocks of 4 of the 2d plate II reprints in black ink on paper and can confirm that they are the same thickness, texture, and tone of the Jolliffe reprints, but are from the top portion of the sheet not covered in his book. Marcel Stanley published an article in the NZ Stamp Collector 52/4, which gives the most accurate description of the reprints, and notes that stamps from the top portion of the sheet that were not included in the book are seen. Row 3-4 Nos 7-8   Row 3-4 Nos 9-10   |
|
gc
Member
Posts: 289
|
Post by gc on Jun 4, 2021 22:05:15 GMT
Here is probably my last post on these Hausberg reprints. I looked at my other denominations and found that my 4d was also on thin card/thick paper. So the last 2d and the 4d in the scans are on thin card/thick paper (together on the right) and the others are on the standard white thick card. The 4d looks a bit less clear than the others, but I am not sure what that means. For the other denominations the thin card/thick paper versions are much less common than the thick card. This suggests that less were produced. Perhaps the sheets for cleaning the plates were on thin card/thick paper and the 20+6 were on the standard thick card of the Hausbergs. The 2d were so many that they used two or more sources of thick card, some where on thick white card and some on thick toned card (or the toning may be just age). The 4d could be a proof, but the quality does not look good enough. Although, the paper of the 2d and the 4d looks quite different. The poor quality of the 4d print might be due to the paper texture, which appears to be a bit rougher. (could always be a fake, simple photocopy on thin card/thick paper) I just checked page 246 Figure 17.18 of Odenweller and the 4d Hausburg prints he shows have the same poor printing with white specks everywhere. This would match what Ken Lynch would call the "Reproductions for Postal Department archives", which were on rather rough paper and used for monitoring the clean up. Which are different from the Hausberg reprints, which were on the thick card. But where does my thin card/thick paper 2d come from if it is not part of the Jolliffe reprints put in the book because it is not from the appropriate rows (it is 2d Plate 11, Row 13 No 2 and Jolliffe put rows 14-20 in the book). I did a tinfoil test on the 2d thin card/thick paper and the "New Zealand" and value came out as an impression, but not other detail. This was similar to a Hausburg that I also tried (the 4d showed very little). (this is the first time I have done the tinfoil test so I am not sure what to expect, particularly from card) I think this suggests that the 2d thin card/thick paper is not a photo copy. The 4d might be, but the paper looks authentic. (Any chance of getting a scan of the back of a plate or die proof to see what the paper looks like? I don't think this will be that useful) Scans of the back of thick paper/thin card so called Hausberg reprints (which are probably Reproductions for Postal Department archives) would be useful to see if the paper is similar to my 4d or my 2d. My best guess is that the 2d thin card/thick paper is a Jolliffe from the reprints not included in the book. Sorry for all the edits, but I keep thinking of things.
Hi all Here it is, after months of paying it off I finally have it in my own hands. The 1d uncleared die proof. This is where it all began. Note the "Z" has also been engraved in reverse. Enjoy Grant    |
|
DK
Member
Posts: 1,532
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
|
Post by DK on Jun 4, 2021 22:40:25 GMT
Wow Grant. Very Impressive. :-)
I could only wish to have the funds available for such lovely items.
Well done and well deserved too.
While I am having a break from researching Philips latest brain teaser - I went away and did some research on your item above.
Hopefully I have the correct info. Feel free to add to - or correct me if I am wrong here :
"1d. essay in the form of a die proof, an early state showing uncleared "postage" and "new zealand" (the "z" double, one engraved in reverse), stamp-size in black on India paper and inset on card (34x42mm.) showing an albino impression of the uncleared background engine-turning. Extremely rare with only a handful of examples recorded. Holcombe Certificate (1988). provenance: Harry Lacoste Bartrop, October 1984"
Dave
|
|
skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
|
Post by skid on Jun 4, 2021 22:53:38 GMT
Thanks Grant, very nice. Comparison of paper types Die proof on Indian paper Hausburg on card  Jolliffe on paper  Paper "Hausburg" either printed for the post office archives or to clean the plates.  |
|
gc
Member
Posts: 289
|
Post by gc on Jun 5, 2021 1:16:32 GMT
Thanks Grant, very nice. Comparison of paper types Die proof on Indian paper Hausburg on card: Jolliffe on paper: Paper "Hausburg" either printed for the post office archives or to clean the plates. Hi Mark I think we should be careful when comparing the paper types, in particular this die proof. Robert Odenweller has the die proof engraving happening on ( or about ) the 3rd March 1854 ( according to Perkins Bacon & Co records ). I think you will find it is on "India Paper", but is then affixed to a card. At this stage I cannot find any records to say when the die proof was affixed to the card. Further research needed here. Regards Grant |
|
gc
Member
Posts: 289
|
Post by gc on Jun 5, 2021 1:21:05 GMT
Wow Grant. Very Impressive. :-) I could only wish to have the funds available for such lovely items. Well done and well deserved too. While I am having a break from researching Philips latest brain teaser - I went away and did some research on your item above. Hopefully I have the correct info. Feel free to add to - or correct me if I am wrong here : "1d. essay in the form of a die proof, an early state showing uncleared "postage" and "new zealand" (the "z" double, one engraved in reverse), stamp-size in black on India paper and inset on card (34x42mm.) showing an albino impression of the uncleared background engine-turning. Extremely rare with only a handful of examples recorded. Holcombe Certificate (1988). provenance: Harry Lacoste Bartrop, October 1984"Dave Hi Dave: Yes well copied and pasted. Yes it is the copy from the original Hackmey Auction. I am currently researching other copies. I have found three, of which one of those is at New Zealand Post Archive at the MUSEUM of NEW ZEALAND TE PAPA TONGAREWA, Wellington, New Zealand. Cheers, Grant |
|
skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
|
Post by skid on Jun 14, 2021 23:23:45 GMT
Here is a comparison of the paper "Hausburg" prints (the blocks of 4) and the card Hausburg prints (singles). Note that the card prints are better quality than the paper ones. Also note the nice wide and regular margins of the 3d compared to the others. This was requested in the plate construction.    |
|
skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
|
Post by skid on Jun 15, 2021 19:25:36 GMT
Hi Skid I will let Grant answer your specific questions around these Proofs/Reprints but in the meantime take a look at these 2 pages ex the Ken Lynch publication entitled " The Chalon Issues of New Zealand" and see what you are getting into here :-)     Enjoy! Dave Dave, What volume and issue of Ken Lynch's book did you take this from. I have finally got my copy from the office and all I have is Vol 1 Sixth edition (2007). I want to try and find the text associated with the table to see where he gets his evidence for the "Reproductions for Postal Department Archives" and their use for monitoring for cleaning the plates. Thanks, Mark |
|
DK
Member
Posts: 1,532
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
|
Post by DK on Jun 16, 2021 4:05:28 GMT
Here is a comparison of the paper "Hausburg" prints (the blocks of 4) and the card Hausburg prints (singles). Note that the card prints are better quality than the paper ones. Also note the nice wide and regular margins of the 3d compared to the others. This was requested in the plate construction. Nice items Mark :-) Dave |
|
DK
Member
Posts: 1,532
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
|
Post by DK on Jun 16, 2021 4:07:44 GMT
What volume and issue of Ken Lynch's book did you take this from. I have finally got my copy from the office and all I have is Vol 1 Sixth edition (2007). I want to try and find the text associated with the table to see where he gets his evidence for the "Reproductions for Postal Department Archives" and their use for monitoring for cleaning the plates. These were taken from my 5th Edition, 2005 - Vol.1 from the catalog pages 25 & 26 (near the back of the volume). Dave |
|
skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
|
Post by skid on Jun 16, 2021 4:28:09 GMT
Thanks. The catalog got moved to Vol 2 in 2007. I don't have that. I guess I better keep a look out and see if I can get a copy. Its a pity that RPSNZ does not have a digital copy in their online library.
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator 
Posts: 5,908 
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Oct 5, 2021 15:00:32 GMT
NZ Chalon London ReprintsI would like to begin by saying that I have no knowledge in this area, but I am interested to learn what the specialists may say about these. I picked up on a post by Mark ( skid ) in another thread about reprinted NZ Chalon stamps in black that were done in a full sheet, an intact example of which is apparently in the British Royal Stamp Collection. So, I sent a PM to Mark to ask about these, as I thought I had seen something similar on offer from a seller at the Charing Cross Collectors Market in London a few weeks ago. I went back to the Market this past weekend, and I took some photos. I apologize for the relatively poor quality of the images, as the lighting was not the best at the Market venue.  NZ Chalon London Reprints in black, printed on card stock, and cut from sheets. The seller did not have a price on these, as he said that he would need to check with a dealer in NZ to find out the current market value and determine his own price. He told me that he considers these denominations, i.e. 3d, 4d, 6d, and 1sh as relatively hard to find, and more valuable than the much more common 2d.  NZ Chalon London Reprints in black on card stock, 2d block of 4, priced at £25 (approx. $34 USD)  NZ Chalon London Reprints in black on card stock, 2d block of 24, priced at £60 (approx. $82 USD) The seller told me that these reprints were made from the original dies in 1905. I did a bit of online research about these, and according to what I read (don't know how accurate it is): the stamps were printed in London in 1905-1906 by a man named Hausberg, at the request of the Royal Philatelic Society, for a proposed handbook that never happened. 1,000 sheets of the 2d Plate 2 were printed, and 6 sheets of each of the other values. Hausberg supplied the paper and paid for the printing, but he died before the project could go forward, and the stamps were sold to dealers. These are apparently often mistaken for plate proofs, which they are not. The online sources also seemed to say that some of these were printed on paper, rather than card stock, but all I can say is that all of the ones that I saw at the Market last weekend were definitely on card stock, not paper. This has been fun for me to learn something new, as I had not heard of these reprints before, and I would be interested in the opinions of the NZ Chalon specialists about these.
|
|
skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
|
Post by skid on Oct 5, 2021 15:29:41 GMT
There is a lot of information on this topic spread throughout this thread, but here is a summary
In 1906 1000 sheets of the 2d Plate II were printed in black ink on card for Hausberg’s book, in association with the Royal Philatelic Society London, on early issues of Australasia, but the book was never published and the reprints were made available to collectors. At the same time, reprints of the other plates, including the 2d Plate I (very worn), were also produced on card. It has been stated that 6 sheets of each plate were printed. It is also stated that 20 were retained by the Postal Department, and eventually all but one sheet of each plate of these were destroyed and the remaining sheet of each plate held in the Postal Department’s archives and eventually transferred to Te Papa, the National Museum of New Zealand. Another set of reprints, similar to the Hausberg reprints on card, were produced on medium wove creamish toned paper with rough texture. It has been suggested that these reprints were used to check or clean the plates before printing. In 1913, 600 sheets of the 2d plate II were printed in black ink on light cream toned paper with pronounced horizontal ribbing for Jolliffe’s book 'The History of New Zealand Stamps'. Rows 14-20 and a single impression of stamp No. 12 Row 13 were included in the book. These reprints are on paper that is whiter and smoother than the Hausberg test prints.
Regards,
Mark
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,908
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Oct 5, 2021 19:19:18 GMT
Many thanks for your kind and patient response, Mark ( skid). I apologize for my lack of familiarity with the subject when I made my earlier post. As I have been reading through all of the previous posts about the reprints and proofs, I see now that what I posted is pretty much the most mundane of this material, despite the fact that it was new to me. I hope that at least a bit of good has come out of it, as thanks to your suggestion, we now have a new thread dedicated to the topic of NZ Chalon reprints and proofs, which seems quite a worthy subject in its own right. |
|
|
|
Post by michael on Oct 5, 2021 20:00:09 GMT
I see now that what I posted is pretty much the most mundane of this material, despite the fact that it was new to me.
On the contrary, the 3d, 4d, 6d and 1s reprints are far from mundane. They are on my wants list and at the right price I would have bought them. You don't see them very often on Ebay etc.
|
|
