crisger
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Artist and Digital Creations
Posts: 112 
What I collect: Japan 1890s -2012
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Post by crisger on Mar 8, 2022 22:44:57 GMT
I have noticed for a while that some issues have color changes ..some I guess are noted enough to be part of the catalog and as part of sets to purchase, i just found a set of the Mt Fuji Blue set i like i decided to acquire as mine were all cancelled but i wanted to ask thoughts here as there are some aspects that i wonder about.
I can see ink shifting, stamps aging or toning but also i worry about counterfits esp with modern copying methods and computer scanning etc. Some older stamps i see for sale look very new or bright to me. I know some may have been preserved hidden in albums or drawers for decades, but some seem to be to be a bit too bright to be authentic.
is there anywhere a listing of stamps that are dangerous to acquire without more knowledge or to be wary of? I saw some posts here about how the oldest Japanese stamps are often copied and some ways to see indications that they are not authentic, markings etc so advice and how to know such things would be very much appreciated.
here is a pic of the three variations of 富士山,Mt Fuji that I have just acquired.
Chris
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,903
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 8, 2022 23:41:04 GMT
I know next to nothing about stamps of eastern Asia, but I do collect western European countries where color shades is a topic of discussion! Some catalogues will list one or two variations, while other catalogues list quite a few, and telling them apart is objective and in some cases cancellation dates come into play, which (at least for me) often makes a mint stamp less desirable when it comes to some of the more subtle color variations.
Forgeries seem to not as unusual as one might think, ranging from high value, to other stamps that were simply printed as a means of survival during very hard times, and there are the 'replicas/reproductions' which many of us who have been in the hobby for a long time have probably received from bonafide stamp dealers. Some have 'facsimile, or some such notation on the back, while others don't offer much of a clue (US Confederate stamps comes to mind).
Your stamps may just be really nice examples", or they may be reprints, which while legitimate, but are not the original issue and do not command the higher CV, or they may indeed be forgeries made with the intention to deceive.
There are several sites which specialize in forgeries , and there are a number of folks here who may be able to shed light on your particular stamps.
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darkormex
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Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,197
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
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Post by darkormex on Mar 8, 2022 23:59:08 GMT
crisger, as far as I know these are normal color variations for this issue. I think there is more about this stamp in the Scott Catalog, but I will have to look later this evening. Also Philatarium may be able to tell you more.
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khj
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Posts: 1,524
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Post by khj on Mar 9, 2022 0:48:51 GMT
darkormex is correct, those are normal. There are 3 basic color varieties, and it looks like you have all 3. There is also the single from the 1947 souvenir sheet -- that exists on 2 different paper types. Philatarium can accurately provide more details...
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darkormex
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Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,197
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
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Post by darkormex on Mar 9, 2022 3:15:41 GMT
crisger , Scott identifies all 3 types as Japan 364 ultramarine, 364a. deep ultramarine and 364b. light blue The souvenir sheet khj is referring to is Scott no. 395. Here is an image I pulled from eBay: 
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salentin
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collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 6,506
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Post by salentin on Mar 9, 2022 12:28:22 GMT
The shown Sc.395 souvenir sheet is the cheapest s.s.of the 1940th and 50th.Three millions were printed. Out of these 123.600 s.s. were overprinted in commemoration of 100th death anniversary of K.Hokusai, whoes paintings and woodcuts are found on many japanese stamps.
Issued April 18th,1948.
I think for a Japan-collector a useful catalogue is a must.Colnect is fine,but difficult to use, if you are not familiar with the stamps of Japan in the first place. A paper-catalogue is,especially for a beginner,a better choice. Scott is better than it´s reputation,but not so easily followed up. Michel is a very good choice,if you know German. Stanley Gibbons was of the same quality,but I do not know,wether they still have a volume for Japan (+ Korea),as mine is about 30 years old.
There are japanese catalogues,but again the language problem may be too big.
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crisger
Member
Artist and Digital Creations
Posts: 112
What I collect: Japan 1890s -2012
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Post by crisger on Mar 9, 2022 13:59:27 GMT
Thanks to you all for the kind posts and the info. I did just obtain that first sheet and have my eye on the second. I do love that image and Katsushika Hokusai-San is well known to me as i also collect his prints in the original when i can find them. i was thinking a good catalog or two will be good so thanks for that info. I have collected Japanese stamps for many years but didnt have the time or the ability to know much about the technical sides but will do my best now to do so. I am focusing on Mint of course and good examples, but will have to live with some hinged examples in the basic collection i was able to purchase which was in a lot of ways pretty identical to my own original one which went up to around 1968. So i have a LOT to learn about.
i can see i will need to find reliable sources for new mint stamps from Japan itself that are reliable and reasonably priced but that will be part of the adventure to come.
I can deal with the language issue to a degree as I also work as a Manga and anime artist and game development but i am not fluent and tho many modern Japanese learn english in school and life, it helps indeed to know and read the language for information and depth of knowledge. I will do my best and thanks again for the very kind replies and detail. A catalog or two will be my next goal after i can hopefully acquire another 2 post scott album to house my more modern pages. I dont like the binders much but will do what i can for that.
Cheers and thanks again
Chris
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darkormex
Member
Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,197
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
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Post by darkormex on Mar 10, 2022 2:51:18 GMT
Chris ( crisger), there is nothing wrong with picking up a used but recent Scott Catalogue off of eBay. Also, I am not sure what your local library is like but our library system seems to purchase a full set of Scott Catalogues every year. Annually they sell off their older sets and I picked up a full set of 2016 catalogues in almost new condition at the annual library book sale several years ago. In the end Scott does what I need it to do. Even if you pick up just the volume that contains Japan I am sure it will be really useful to you. I would also recommend looking for a Sakura Catalogue of Japanese Stamps, also available on eBay. True, there is not a whole lot of english but most catalogues are similar and you can usually figure them out. It also sounds like you have some ability to read hiragana and katakana, if so, you are way ahead of me. I see 2022 catalogues for sale on eBay for $36.00 currently. |
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khj
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Post by khj on Mar 10, 2022 3:14:43 GMT
I just checked my 2016 Sakura, and oddly it only lists 2 color varieties. However, it does list an additional minor watermark variety that Scott/Michel don't bother with. The JSDA might provide more insight. Hopefully, Philatarium will have time to chime in. I will try to find time later to scan/post the Sakura catalog page. |
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khj
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Post by khj on Mar 10, 2022 5:03:50 GMT
Relevant snippet from the 2016 Sakura:  |
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crisger
Member
Artist and Digital Creations
Posts: 112
What I collect: Japan 1890s -2012
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Post by crisger on Mar 10, 2022 6:20:27 GMT
Thank you khj-san, i do feel hopefully that the deep blue variant may be valid but we will see what others say. I have several from that page and hope to get more. I do like the early designs for their simplicity and strength.
I did find the latest Scott Catalog so may make due with that and Sakura for now. thanks again for the kind input. much appreciated while i am getting traction in all of this. I am working on the middle of my collection say from 1920 to 1970 for now, older and later takes a lot more learning to not make big mistakes...so happily adding what i can and working to mount things that came with my purchased album, whoever had it had collected a lot of sheets and plates and I want to mount them well and carefully and then work to replace cancelled and hinged stamps with better. Step by step. thanks again all. and also i got fortunate and was able to acquire this today  I think there may be a rose version as well but not sure so will wait for more research on it. i studied the color issue with this series too and found some that looked so new that i had doubts about them. this one looks authentic from a study of the gum and the perforations, etc. i like the air mail series and am working to improved what i have of them. And again the colors are a big issue that I study as much as i can from what is available.
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crisger
Member
Artist and Digital Creations
Posts: 112
What I collect: Japan 1890s -2012
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Post by crisger on Mar 11, 2022 15:12:31 GMT
i had another color learning experience with a nice stamp of the Bodoin Temple, first issued in 1950 and then redrawn and reissued without the zeroes...in 1957, it is a stamp i have had an eye out for and found a nice one yesterday, but had to look into it as there were the two versions. This one i got, the 24 yen from 1957 is nice but i still need to watch for the 1950 one which is still a empty spot in my album. Looking at it carefully i can see they put a lot of work into making the second very nice in detail. Each of these adventures teaches me more of what to look for and what i see. Step by step. thanks again for the tips and help here. Chris  |
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crisger
Member
Artist and Digital Creations
Posts: 112
What I collect: Japan 1890s -2012
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Post by crisger on Mar 13, 2022 18:19:41 GMT
I received the collection yesterday of the three imprints of mt fuji in blue i posted about here. They do look good aged with toning and the colors are strong and the deepest blue one looks as real as all of them. I do see some slight variations in the snow pattern on the first one i will get better pics soon. thanks all for the advice. I have a lot to add to my collection with recent acqusitions and will have to sort thru and see what i can determine, i was able to find 2 old style 2 square Scott Albums which is what i prefer, and will take time mounting things well with archival sheets and over time study what i have and see what may need to be culled as suspect. For now I have a lot of work to study things.
I was able to obtain full sets of all of the major air mail issues which i was really hopeful about not all of them mint but it is nice to have the full array. Thanks again for the posts and the help from all here, it is reassuring to have this site and all of you to help look over my shoulder and to learn from as time allows us all.
thanks again ,
Chris
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,524
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Post by khj on Mar 13, 2022 18:29:16 GMT
Thank you for bringing up the color variations. I didn't know about the watermark variety for that stamp until I looked up the Sakura for you!
Checking out the watermark is now on my list of things to do if I ever pull out my Japan accumulation again.
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crisger
Member
Artist and Digital Creations
Posts: 112
What I collect: Japan 1890s -2012
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Post by crisger on Mar 13, 2022 19:02:45 GMT
@ khj ,thanks for reminding me i need to study up on my watermarking skills, has been ages ..decades since i had to do any and when i get the catalogs i have on order in hand will be careful to pay attention to that detail also. As an artist the colors is something i think about normally and it will be a help identifying many of the early stamps which are organized by their color often when they had identical images. I have already seen the variations that occur normally from aging and toning, and also will need to learn to recognize counterfiets and new imprints tho i note that at times such is honestly and correctly noted in sales etc as the rules of ethics require. thanks again for checking on those stamps for me from your catalog. Much appreciated. |
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khj
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Posts: 1,524
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Post by khj on Mar 13, 2022 19:09:47 GMT
Keep in mind, there are 2 different paper varieties for the souvenir sheet. I think one of them is a grayish paper variety. I didn't see the paper variety listed in Sakura.
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crisger
Member
Artist and Digital Creations
Posts: 112
What I collect: Japan 1890s -2012
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Post by crisger on Mar 13, 2022 19:32:23 GMT
OK thanks again khj, i have acquired both souvenir sheets so will have to note the paper thanks for that tip! Chris |
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I think there may be a rose version as well but not sure so will wait for more research on it. i studied the color issue with this series too and found some that looked so new that i had doubts about them. this one looks authentic from a study of the gum and the perforations, etc. i like the air mail series and am working to improved what i have of them. And again the colors are a big issue that I study as much as i can from what is available.