crisger
Member 
Artist and Digital Creations
Posts: 102 
What I collect: Japan 1890s -2012
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Post by crisger on Jun 9, 2022 16:29:55 GMT
I am working to sort, study and mount Japanese stamps I have collected from a number of sources. Some appear to be old, from the late 1800s but I am well aware of the possibility of fakes, frauds and counterfeits. But I am new to much of the detail and wanted to ask for advise here from you all.
Some i have not been able to find Scott Catalog or Sakura, I will post those first...
have not been able to fine these but i am new to a lot of the earliest issues so any feed back is very welcome.
these next ones some of them appear in the catalogs but some details seem different from published images of real example and some just i cant find but also feel a bit wrong...
All of these were mounted in an older Scott Specialty Japan Album that I purchased some time ago, but I have no idea who collected them or how authoritative they may have been, and I am a novice in much of the detail so ..any input or suggestions are very welcome.
Chris
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hdm1950
Member
Posts: 1,603
What I collect: I collect world wide up to 1965 with several specialty albums added due to volume of material I have acquired. At this point I am focused on Canada and British America. I am always on the lookout for stamps and covers with postmarks from communities in Queens County, Nova Scotia. I do list various goods including stamps occasionally on eBay as hdm50
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Post by hdm1950 on Jun 9, 2022 17:12:39 GMT
These all appear to be revenue stamps and genuine.
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crisger
Member
Artist and Digital Creations
Posts: 102
What I collect: Japan 1890s -2012
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Post by crisger on Jun 9, 2022 17:36:29 GMT
Thank you hdm1950, i had not thought about Revenue Stamps. I will have to learn about them, if they are real that is nice to hear for they appear to be among the oldest stamps from Japan, which makes them even more interesting. thanks for the reply. Chris |
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salentin
Member
collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 5,619
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Post by salentin on Jun 9, 2022 17:40:44 GMT
They a revenues,except of the two "birds". Both (15 & 45) are quite expensive,if genuine. Unfortunately I think,I can see this,even on the scans,that they are not genuine, as both show the characters for San-ko = forgery.
On the 15 Sen the upper character is quite prominent to the left of the bird´s brest, the lower seems to be partially obscured by the cancellation.
On the 45 Sen the characters are right and left of the bird,each roughly one millimeter from the inner circle.
As a general rule one can be sure that all expensive early stamps of Japan in old collections are forgeries,unless expert certificates tell otherwise.Exceptions are as rare as the top prize in a lottery.
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crisger
Member
Artist and Digital Creations
Posts: 102
What I collect: Japan 1890s -2012
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Post by crisger on Jun 9, 2022 19:58:25 GMT
Hi Werner thanks i kind of thought so about the birds, the collector i got the collection from had mounted them off to the side so i think he probably also knew they were forgeries. thanks for the info helps me identify others i will post more of the earliest ones. thanks again for the data.
As a member of the American Philatelic Society i am committed to not displaying any stamps as genuine that are forgeries so I am hopeful i can learn to recognize them accurately and not include them in my collection.
I am hoping Scott has a section for revenue stamps may have to add some pages for them if not. Chris |
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator 
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jun 9, 2022 20:49:02 GMT
Thanks for your post, Chris ( crisger ). Have you had a chance to look through any of the existing threads here on TSF about Japan? If you do, I think you will find a great deal of good information, much of it relevant to your specific areas of interest. Here are some examples: Japan Revenues: Hand-Engraved Documentary Issues These correspond to the 5th, 6th, and 7th stamps you posted: thestampforum.boards.net/thread/5861/japan-revenues-engraved-documentary-issues?page=1Classic Japan: Genuine or Fake? There is some discussion about the 45-sen Goshawk issue, which corresponds to the 4th stamp in your post: thestampforum.boards.net/thread/6178/classic-japan-genuine-fakeJapan: Stamps In this thread, where you previously participated, Joan ( cursus ) posted some revenue stamps like your 1st and 2nd examples, and Dave ( Philatarium ) responded about them 2 posts later: thestampforum.boards.net/post/115164/threadTo your above comment, Scott normally only lists non-US revenue stamps if the stamps in question were also used postally. If not, you will probably not find them in Scott. I noted that you also mentioned that you don't understand what revenue stamps are used for. Simply put, revenue stamps, sometimes also called fiscal stamps, are used to collect taxes or fees. The taxes or fees could be for all sorts of things, such as taxes on alcohol, tobacco, playing cards, medicines, etc. Also they could appear on receipts or legal or bank documents to indicate that an applicable tax or filing fee or something was paid. There were many possible uses. I hope this helps.  |
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hdm1950
Member
Posts: 1,603
What I collect: I collect world wide up to 1965 with several specialty albums added due to volume of material I have acquired. At this point I am focused on Canada and British America. I am always on the lookout for stamps and covers with postmarks from communities in Queens County, Nova Scotia. I do list various goods including stamps occasionally on eBay as hdm50
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Post by hdm1950 on Jun 9, 2022 21:22:28 GMT
Thank you hdm1950 , i had not thought about Revenue Stamps. I will have to learn about them, if they are real that is nice to hear for they appear to be among the oldest stamps from Japan, which makes them even more interesting. thanks for the reply. Chris It appears I should have researched a bit more Chris rather than generalized on these. I do not specialize in Japan but know from having quite a sizeable collection that they had a very diverse selection of revenue stamps. Other members have been far more helpful than my quick reply. |
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crisger
Member
Artist and Digital Creations
Posts: 102
What I collect: Japan 1890s -2012
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Post by crisger on Jun 9, 2022 23:03:43 GMT
Beryllium Guy and hdm1950 thank you both, BG that was a wonderful scan and set of links much appreciated this sure is an amazing forum. At my aging age, my memory is not the greatest so your reminder of threads including some i have been in helped a lot. It is a bit owervwhelming to be making a mature approach to stamp appreication since my first foray was as a teenager many decades ago. Japan has greatly expancded its philitelic realm and i have the means now to afford to expand my own approach so it is an exciting but at times scary venture. hdm1950 never hesitate to share with me i will always appreciate it. We all learn in this process of sharing if we dont share we dont learn. so thank you very much. I will set up revenue stamps at the back of my third albun currently they will be: Book 1 1870s to 1990 Book 2 1990 to 2004 Book 3 2004 - 2011 the first two are Old Style Scott Japan specilaity Books with 2 square posts, and the third for now will be a square post binder until i can purchase used more of the old style books probably at NY Stamps Auctions as they seem to offer the most. thanks again gentlemen you have greatly assisted me and I appreciate it. Chris
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crisger
Member
Artist and Digital Creations
Posts: 102
What I collect: Japan 1890s -2012
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Post by crisger on Jun 9, 2022 23:26:17 GMT
Following up on threads suggested in posts above I found Takahashi Stamps and they have a current illustrated price list that will be a precious help to me in a first culling and sort, for it shows in high detail most of the major issues i am concerned about. I can fill the places on the pages and have a "complete' set of many but that does not mean that they are authentic and i will be going thru things carefully and hopefully can form connections with reliable dealers in Japan to fill in for these ones that I must discard. here is that PDF from 2021 for Takahashi stamps www.takahashistamp.com/21-10-net.pdfchris |
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crisger
Member
Artist and Digital Creations
Posts: 102
What I collect: Japan 1890s -2012
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Post by crisger on Jun 11, 2022 4:51:07 GMT
Hello All OK i have begun my study of the earliest stamps I have collected from various sources. None of them i can verify as original yet. After examining the first four pages of my album which starts with the very first issues, I am not convinced that any of them are authentic but will share some pictures of them for anyone to take a look and consider along with me. I will continue this for the earliest years, not going to try for much later on for now. I have as reference a PDF which is the current offerings for sale and auction from the Takahashi Stamp Company in Japan which shows images of all of the stamps that I have in various conditions, so I am going to take them as assuredly accurate and good references. I will post some pictures from that sales list in comparison to ones i have, overall i see differences varying from thickness of lines, spacing of elements, actual detail in borders, floral deocrations, the size and weight of the lines of the SEN amount labels, i cant judge color and paper as I have no idea how the inks and paper of that time period age or can age or change. There is just one that so far i have not found fault with but i am far from certain of any of them. What is have is more complete further in on the album but for this is from the very first pages.
this is the oldest dating from 1872-4, and was so faded it was hard to compare it to other later versions of the 2 SEN yellow ink stamps but i have one of those as well so will show that comparison later in this post.
This one is so crisp and clear I pretty much discarded it as a modern fake. Again I dont know enough to know but that was my feeling on this the second stamp also from 1872-4.
the next page starting with 1874 has more to work with....but again I dont feel strongly any of them are authentic yet..
This 1/2 SEN in brown ink stamp had more to study and here is the actual verified original from Takahashi Stamp Co.
I saw right away differences in a number of element, for instance the spacing of the SEN at the top, the shape of the letters, other details so i feel strongly this is a copy by someone.
next on that page is a 20 SEN in blue black ink, and there was a clear image of one on the Takahashi Page to compare and study.
I saw immediate differnces again, for instance the shape of the 2 in the 20, there is a small idiograph at the very bottom of the central design that is differnt, and other differences so I doubt this one too.
Now there is another Faded yellow ink 2 SEN stamp to study, the first image here is mine from my album,
and here is an authentic original......
this is not an exact same one for the crossed swords at the bottom of the central images are a floral design that is found on authentic stamps on mine but I feel the faded nature of the yellow ink and how clear and crisp mine is tend to make me feel strongly mine is a fake.
the same is true i feel of a 4 SEN stamp i have and the original showing the same differneces and others as well.
and here is an authentic one of this..
on this page was a Red Ink 20 SEN that is the most hopeful of all of these early ones i have started studying. There is a lot that seems pretty similar, but again , so much else could disqualify mine such as paper, cancellation stamp and other factors. but here is mine..
and the authentic original
there were several of the bird stamps on that page but i saw the clear signs that they were false.
the Takahashi Stemp Company PDF sales list that i used as a reference is here:
I will post higher rez pictures of the album pages for anyone to examine i will be working on this for some time so just a start but certainly is interesting...and so glad there are those who know this all very very well. I welcome any comments.
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philatelia
Member
Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
Posts: 3,404
What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
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Post by philatelia on Jun 11, 2022 9:06:46 GMT
This would make a nice article for the newsletter!
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crisger
Member
Artist and Digital Creations
Posts: 102
What I collect: Japan 1890s -2012
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Post by crisger on Jun 11, 2022 13:40:53 GMT
I am happy to share it for such purposes. for me it is a labor of learning and I hope I can improve my understanding of the early issues.
Chris
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salentin
Member
collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 5,619
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Post by salentin on Jun 11, 2022 13:55:40 GMT
I am no expert on early Japan.Even more I always shyed away from these stamps and therefore own few only. But at least I can identify some of the more easy to determine forgeries.
Can´t say anything about the yellow 2 Sen,as I simply cannot see them well enough.
10 Sen: a clear San-Ko (imitation).The japanese characters for that are placed between the lowest middle character and the "box" for the syllabic.
1/2 Sen: Mo-Zo (fake).The characters are to the left and the right of the lowest middle character.
20 Sen lilac: San-Ko. The characters are to the left and the right of the central circle above the ornaments.
4 Sen: I have no opinion about it. It looks like type I.
20 Sen red: again I do not know.However it somehow looks suspicous to me.It is one of the few stamps I own. Mine looks in many details different,than yours,Chris.However mine also looks different from the image of takashistamps.But that maybe due to the not so perfect image.Mine is expertised,so I assume it is genuine.
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crisger
Member
Artist and Digital Creations
Posts: 102
What I collect: Japan 1890s -2012
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Post by crisger on Jun 11, 2022 15:51:52 GMT
thanks a lot Werner, that is a big help. Much appreciate your details. I notice right away both yours and the one from Takahashi the 20 YEN have no perferoations and mine do have very pronounced ones. Well this is a good study and I will keep at it but wanted to share as input from you all is very helpful. thanks again
Chris
i may see about purchasing some from Takahashi once i find out where i am at.
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