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Post by stampsattic on Nov 19, 2022 19:01:16 GMT
Original thread title: What's the difference?
(I am trying this again with the photo hopefully it comes through! I am new here please bear with me.) I received a Coiled Dragon Stamp this week and placed it next to a similar looking stamp. I can see the characters on the Overprint are different. Any information on why or what this is will be helpful Thank you!  |
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hdm1950
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Posts: 1,886 
What I collect: I collect world wide up to 1965 with several specialty albums added due to volume of material I have acquired. At this point I am focused on Canada and British America. I am always on the lookout for stamps and covers with postmarks from communities in Queens County, Nova Scotia. I do list various goods including stamps occasionally on eBay as hdm50
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Post by hdm1950 on Nov 19, 2022 20:33:14 GMT
Looking in my Scott catalogue these are overprints by two different companies and have separate Scott numbers. The one on the left is China, Sc163 and on the right is Sc146. If you have access to a Scott Catalogue, you will see the images.
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darkormex
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Post by darkormex on Nov 19, 2022 20:55:55 GMT
In both cases, the overprints have the same meaning though the style of the characters is different. The meaning of the characters, read from top to bottom is, The Republic of China. The characters are pronounced "chung hua min kuo", again, reading from top to bottom. The overprint on the left was printed by Waterlow and is in writing style script whereas the overprint on the right was overprinted by the Custom Statistical Department at Shanghai and they used No. 5 Sung type for the overprint. This information is from the China Stamp Society Specialized Catalog of China.
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renden
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Post by renden on Nov 19, 2022 21:03:54 GMT
In both cases, the overprints have the same meaning though the style of the characters is different. The meaning of the characters, read from top to bottom is, The Republic of China. The characters are pronounced "chung hua min kuo", again, reading from top to bottom. The overprint on the left was printed by Waterlow and is in writing style script whereas the overprint on the right was overprinted by the Custom Statistical Department at Shanghai and they used No. 5 Sung type for the overprint. This information is from the China Stamp Society Specialized Catalog of China. You impress me - thanks !! René |
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darkormex
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Post by darkormex on Nov 19, 2022 21:06:16 GMT
These were overprinted at the point of transition from Imperial China to the Republic of China. From this point forward, you will find the same 4 characters incorporated into the printing of stamps from China up until the communists took over in 1949. This is a good way of identifying stamps of China. The stamps may be printed reading from right to left or left to right as in the example below. 中華民國 You can see these same 4 characters in this common Sun Yat Sen stamp above his head, reading from right to left.  |
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hdm1950
Member
Posts: 1,886
What I collect: I collect world wide up to 1965 with several specialty albums added due to volume of material I have acquired. At this point I am focused on Canada and British America. I am always on the lookout for stamps and covers with postmarks from communities in Queens County, Nova Scotia. I do list various goods including stamps occasionally on eBay as hdm50
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Post by hdm1950 on Nov 19, 2022 21:21:19 GMT
In both cases, the overprints have the same meaning though the style of the characters is different. The meaning of the characters, read from top to bottom is, The Republic of China. The characters are pronounced "chung hua min kuo", again, reading from top to bottom. The overprint on the left was printed by Waterlow and is in writing style script whereas the overprint on the right was overprinted by the Custom Statistical Department at Shanghai and they used No. 5 Sung type for the overprint. This information is from the China Stamp Society Specialized Catalog of China. That is consistent with the Scott catalogue but I was too lazy to type out the full details. |
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Post by stampsattic on Nov 20, 2022 8:28:13 GMT
Wow that is amazing information hdm and darkormex!! Thank you!
I do have a Scott Catalouge I will look them up.
Meanwhile I contacted the person who sent me the recent stamp and asked why the two were different in the overprint.
This was his answer,"The first one was overprinted by London while second one was overprinted by Shanghai. The values are more or less the same."
Thank you for taking time to explain things. I will reread all you have written here!
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hdm1950
Member
Posts: 1,886
What I collect: I collect world wide up to 1965 with several specialty albums added due to volume of material I have acquired. At this point I am focused on Canada and British America. I am always on the lookout for stamps and covers with postmarks from communities in Queens County, Nova Scotia. I do list various goods including stamps occasionally on eBay as hdm50
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Post by hdm1950 on Nov 20, 2022 11:59:08 GMT
stampsattic China is a country that can either drive one crazy or give great pleasure looking for and studying the many overprints especially on all the provinces. I do not specialize in China but have 100's if not 1000's in my world wide collection. The hunt is half the fun for me so whenever I acquire an old collection and go through the China pages I get lost in checking all the overprints and invariably I will fill a few holes. Like most countries the bulk of them have little value but it is still fun finding things you don't have. Enjoy!
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Post by stampsattic on Nov 20, 2022 23:51:11 GMT
hdm1950 This is a new area for me and already I wondered if I was venturing into something that was going to be a challenge. I just finished an arduous placement of early Argentina stamps and they have all kinds of overprints,watermark differences etc. I would have gone nuts if someone hadn't already identified the majority.I watched some videos yesterday of someone who has specialized only on Chinese stamps.He has done a great job. Hopefully I will enjoy this!.
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Philatarium
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Post by Philatarium on Nov 21, 2022 0:13:17 GMT
I watched some videos yesterday of someone who has specialized only on Chinese stamps. He has done a great job. , I would love to watch those. Please feel free to post the link(s) here! |
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Post by stampsattic on Nov 21, 2022 0:59:01 GMT
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darkormex
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Post by darkormex on Nov 21, 2022 1:00:50 GMT
stampsattic , I would like to see those videos too. Please post when you get a chance. Also, I am like hdm1950 in that I like buying old collections and sorting through them for items that I don't have. Chinese overprints, while numerous and seemingly complicated, are not overwhelming once you start learning about them. The Scott Catalogue now does a fairly good job of showing the overprints in a way that makes them easier to sort out. For Asian stamps in general, especially China, Japan and Korea, I would encourage you to use the stamp identifier in the back of the Scott catalogue. It does a fairly good job of helping the collector identify the different scripts/text/characters on the stamps of these countries so they can be sorted correctly. I think a lot of collectors get intimidated by the characters/scripts and feel like they can't figure out the differences but to me it is no different than flyspecking those old US stamps for plate and print flaws. I recently bought several Japan collections, mounted on pages from old albums. Scattered in and amongst all the Japanese stamps were Korean, Republic of China and People's Republic of China stamps that were misidentified. Just a little time spent on the stamp identifier pages at the back of the catalogue would have probably helped these collectors sort their Asian stamps correctly.
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Post by stampsattic on Nov 21, 2022 1:06:02 GMT
Thank you Darkormex, that is helpful information.
I posted the link above hope you can see it.
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paulh
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Post by paulh on Nov 21, 2022 14:36:08 GMT
 Can you help? I have spent the last few days identifying and dating my Chinese stamps. I have the attached two overprints that I cannot find anywhere. The first seems to bear the characters "bei" or north and "nan" or east (3rd and 4th characters in the overprint) but I can't find this anywhere in catalogues for north-east regional issues. The original stamps were issued 1938 onwards so I would think they were sometime in the final years of the Chiang Kai Shek government before the establishment of the PRC. The PRC tended not to use overprinted stamp of Sun-yat Sen, as in this case. The stamp on the right without overprints were issued in 1949 after the PRC was established under Mao. I'm not sure what the "0.20" refers to but hazard a guess that there was some revaluation of the yuan after the rampant inflation at the end of CKS's republic - could this be a revaluation to 20 fen? I lived in Hong Kong for 2 years and Taiwan for 7 years and I am somewhat red-faced to admit that I should have used the time to learn Chinese better. Many thanks to all. Paul |
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hdm1950
Member
Posts: 1,886
What I collect: I collect world wide up to 1965 with several specialty albums added due to volume of material I have acquired. At this point I am focused on Canada and British America. I am always on the lookout for stamps and covers with postmarks from communities in Queens County, Nova Scotia. I do list various goods including stamps occasionally on eBay as hdm50
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Post by hdm1950 on Nov 21, 2022 17:17:27 GMT
The green one on the right is from the Republic of China and listed under Northeastern Provinces. The Scott number is either 9 or 10.
The train stamp is a 1956 issue from the Republic of China Sc. 1130.
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khj
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Post by khj on Nov 21, 2022 19:55:29 GMT
The green one on the right is from the Republic of China and listed under Northeastern Provinces. The Scott number is either 9 or 10. In this case, #9. |
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khj
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Post by khj on Nov 21, 2022 21:08:03 GMT
The first seems to bear the characters "bei" or north and "nan" or east (3rd and 4th characters in the overprint) Close on the 4th character, you had the right meaning, just the wrong pronunciation. The 4th character is "dong", which does mean "East". The word you mentioned (but not in the overprint) pronounced "nan" means "South". I lived in Hong Kong for 2 years and Taiwan for 7 years and I am somewhat red-faced to admit that I should have used the time to learn Chinese better. Still, you did pretty good! |
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madbaker
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Post by madbaker on Jul 11, 2023 5:36:28 GMT
Hello! I'm working my way through a mix of Chinese stamps I've been avoiding for a few years. I wonder if you can help me with them. I'm down to two stamps from this issue that I can't place: 
I've identified two of the four since I made the scan. Here's what I think I know.
#1 - don't know. Scott lists an $800 overprint but this one is clearly $500. (I have several $800 overprints to compare to)
#2 - Szechuan, according to the site referenced in another thread. "Digital Taiwan"
#3 - don't know.
So any help with #1 and #3 would sure be appreciated! 
PS - of course this is one of the first of several issues chock full of overprints. I made it through the Junks OK and I'm hoping that I'll get better at this as I go.
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madbaker
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Post by madbaker on Jul 11, 2023 5:41:22 GMT
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jul 11, 2023 5:59:35 GMT
Thanks for your post, Mark ( madbaker)! I have a bunch of these tucked away somewhere too that I have been avoiding for years. Let’s tag some members who might be able to help: khjLindadarkormex |
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khj
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Post by khj on Jul 11, 2023 6:57:41 GMT
Yes, stamp #4, in the top line reading from right to left, the 2nd & 3rd characters indicate Taiwan.
In the Scott catalog, it will be listed in Republic of China, BOB section, Taiwan #22(1947)
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khj
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Post by khj on Jul 11, 2023 7:14:55 GMT
For the other stamps, also in the Scott catalog in Republic of China, BOB section:
Stamp 1: Northeastern Provinces #44(1947)
Stamp 2: Szechwan Province #5(1933)
The 3rd stamp is overprinted as a Postal Savings Stamp, along with a local Henan (Honan) overprint in bottom half. It will not be Scott listed.
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jul 11, 2023 11:05:15 GMT
Thanks, khj! I had a feeling you would know about these! |
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madbaker
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Post by madbaker on Jul 11, 2023 14:31:48 GMT
For the other stamps, also in the Scott catalog in Republic of China, BOB section: Stamp 1: Northeastern Provinces #44(1947) Stamp 2: Szechwan Province #5(1933) The 3rd stamp is overprinted as a Postal Savings Stamp, along with a local Henan (Honan) overprint in bottom half. It will not be Scott listed.
Hooray! Thank you. I've got a Scott catalogue from the library but missed them all.
Thanks especially for #3 - the red overprint is super legible so I was stumped that I couldn't find it. I'll use it as a reference as I go through the later issues.
And I wasn't sure if the pale blue markings at the bottom of the stamp was an overprint or part of a postmark! Thanks for clearing that up.
PS - this batch of stamps makes me realize that the lighting at my stamp table is poor indeed. I'm reading the catalogue with such intensity I needed the flashlight of my phone and some magnification too!  |
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khj
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Post by khj on Jul 11, 2023 22:42:03 GMT
On the Postal Savings Stamp, reading from right to left the first line, the 2nd & 3rd characters identify it as financial/savings (i.e., Postal Savings), and the different 4th character combined with the 5th character indicate it is specifically for this type of use. So basically, the overprint means that the postage stamp has been converted/restricted for financial use.
The very light 2-character overprint at the bottom indicates the province. These were all local overprints, to counter theft and usage in other areas. For US collectors, this is the equivalent of the Kansas-Nebraska overprints.
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madbaker
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Post by madbaker on Jul 14, 2023 3:43:08 GMT
Well, I made it through the "Martyr" issue. What a mix. Secret Marks, watermarks or not, and surcharges and overprints galore! I got them all, sort of. Here's my roughly sorted 'provincial' issues, just to prove that I'm trying. I'm curious about the bottom row though. I can't find any information about the green overprint. I wonder if you might have some insight, @kjh? Here's a close up:  Oh, and a supplementary question: - that top left stamp - Inner Mongolia, with the lovely two tone overprints. The Scott listing is for the 1941 printing, with a 'secret mark'. But the stamp I have is the earlier printing, without a 'secret mark'. Have I won the lottery? I could really use some cash for a round the world trip.  |
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khj
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Post by khj on Jul 14, 2023 13:21:50 GMT
Great job! I'm curious about the bottom row though. I can't find any information about the green overprint. I wonder if you might have some insight. The green surcharges are the Chinese National Currency surcharges of 1945, thus distinguishing them from the Shanghai regional issues. From left to right, Republic of China Scott numbers: 619, 616, 616 k |
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khj
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Post by khj on Jul 14, 2023 13:50:56 GMT
that top left stamp - Inner Mongolia, with the lovely two tone overprints. The Scott listing is for the 1941 printing, with a 'secret mark'. But the stamp I have is the earlier printing, without a 'secret mark'. The 2nd line in red is a surcharge of $1, so the stamp is a $1 on 8c Inner Mongolia stamp. That would make it Scott Meng Chiang #2N127(1945). Sorry, you may have to fund your world trip from another source. I never checked, but I believe the 8c stamp used to make that surcharge is from the Peking printing. If you compare to the original Martyr issue, the stamp should be about 1.5mm wider. k |
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madbaker
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Post by madbaker on Jul 15, 2023 2:01:14 GMT
Wow, thanks again @kjh. I shouldn't expect it to be easy, given I can't read the characters (yet! haha) but it's fascinating to me how an extra mark puts it 5-6 pages over in the catalogue. Scott has many challenges being an 'all things to all people' worldwide catalogue, but a decision tree or primer for these issues would be extremely helpful. For what it's worth, I don't find the online catalogues like colnect or stampworld to be any better in this regard. That martyr issue is fun in that they list the first issue of the set (the one without 'secret marks', printed in the 1930's) and then have a half page of references to other listings in the catalogue. And I see the next issue has an even longer list. Good info, poorly sorted, when you have a handful of mystery stamps in front of you. I guess that's what the specialized catalogues are for. |
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madbaker
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Post by madbaker on Jul 16, 2023 0:24:26 GMT
I went back over my Scott catalogue (well, the 2021 library edition!) and found the two listings you shared, khj . Fascinating. I totally missed the second 'peking' printing (in which the 8c stamp is listed on its lonesome) and the note about the green overprints as well. The standard Scott listing format sure doesn't match the real life flow of these issues. That being said, I think it justifies a custom sort of these long running, oft changing definitive issues. The story gets lost in a 'organized according to Scott' re-telling. (and yes, I'm looking at the China Stamp Society website in another tab. I'm a generalist...I'm a generalist...  ) |
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