angore
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What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on May 8, 2020 22:18:10 GMT
The Deegam number is DG1460.2.1 for the litho version.
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brightonpete
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Post by brightonpete on May 9, 2020 2:45:20 GMT
Stoneham has it as photogravure in the list of stamps. It's nowhere else, at least from what I have seen...  |
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Londonbus1
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Posts: 5,064
What I collect: Wonderland; 1912 Jubilee International Stamp Exhibition, London ('Ideal' Stamp, ephemera); French Cinderellas with an emphasis on Poster Stamps; Israel and Palestine Cinderellas ; Jewish National Fund Stamps, Labels and Tags; London 2010, A Festival of Stamps (anything); South Africa 1937 Coronation issue of KGVI, singles or bi-lingual pairs.
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Post by Londonbus1 on May 9, 2020 7:19:59 GMT
What about the 88p, 9p and 2p mentioned earlier ? I see from the post of brightonpete (above) that the 9p is listed in the Stoneham but not the 2p. What about the 88p ? Is that in the Stoneham ? And are any listed now in Gibbons ? My catalogue is from 2013 so if someone has a newer one......... Wow! I don't collect Machins anymore but when something ruffles my feathers !!  |
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Post by feebletodix on May 9, 2020 8:15:18 GMT
From my SG concise listing as MS3073 with both mint and used values I would guess they did not expect anyone to break the sheet and use them individually for postage. The changes in the design seemed to take them by surprise and they do not seem to ever have gotten a good idea on how to list the varieties in a usable manner. For ease of identification in my own collection I would use the Miniature Sheet reference and add a letter suffix.
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angore
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What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on May 9, 2020 11:17:38 GMT
From 2018 Concise. They do not reference specific numbers beyond the MS and not mentioned in the summary of decimal ellipticals. You can see they mention MS2146 in the list. My guess is they stopped updating the table.
I have my own spreadsheet of collectible varieties.
This is from 2018 Concise. |
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anglobob
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What I collect: France and French Colonies,French cinderellas British Commonwealth QE2
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Post by anglobob on May 9, 2020 12:19:52 GMT
Londonbus1...hope your feathers get unruffled soon.I remember buying several copies of the MS at the Royal Mail booth.I noticed that the catalogue value has increased a lot more than the Centenary of Accession of George V sheets also issued at London 2010. I tried to find used copies on my last trip to England but had no luck. Anglobob
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brightonpete
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Post by brightonpete on May 9, 2020 15:02:57 GMT
Aha, I found another £1.46 stamp, this one dark turquoise and Cartor Litho printing.
I thought that perhaps it would be listed with the commemoratives, but alas, not. Although other souvenir sheets are, like the May 22, 2000 Stamp Show 2000 souvenir sheet. They are all Machin's, so why not in with the Machin's bunch? And then there are 'Smilers Sheets' listed near the back, & OMG... Prestige booklets by the dozens and Christmas books. When does it ever end? But I can't find that souvenir sheet for London 2010. It has to be in there somewhere!
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Londonbus1
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Cinderella Stamp Club Member 3059
Posts: 5,064
What I collect: Wonderland; 1912 Jubilee International Stamp Exhibition, London ('Ideal' Stamp, ephemera); French Cinderellas with an emphasis on Poster Stamps; Israel and Palestine Cinderellas ; Jewish National Fund Stamps, Labels and Tags; London 2010, A Festival of Stamps (anything); South Africa 1937 Coronation issue of KGVI, singles or bi-lingual pairs.
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Post by Londonbus1 on May 9, 2020 15:41:11 GMT
So the £1.46, 88p, 9p and 2p stamps will not be listed individually by Gibbons The 9p is listed in the Stoneham but not the others, is that correct ? Pretty inconsistent is it not. The 2013 catalogue clearly states that the 'U' numbers and issues up to the printing of that catalogue will be updated to 'Y' numbers in the next issue. They must have changed their minds. Most odd. Looks like SG have given up on Machins. |
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angore
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What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on May 10, 2020 12:03:35 GMT
I am now trying to find a resource on summarizing identification of the NVI self-adhesives. I see different die cuts but cannot find anything using adminware, Deegam, and Connoisseur resources. One question is the die cuts are unique to printers?
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Post by feebletodix on May 10, 2020 12:12:33 GMT
The simple answer is yes, however that is based upon the early issues having different lengths of gap and the number of gaps as well, later issues should be more consistent with size and gaps. Which particular issues are giving you problems?
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brightonpete
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Post by brightonpete on May 10, 2020 17:40:35 GMT
So I finally pulled out my Machin's to get a start on them
First, what I thought would be a breeze, the pre-decimal's. Surprise, it isn't! Is SG Concise as weird in numbering as this Stoneham I have. I would think some sort of chronological order would be used, but not! And the varieties listed, I am not going to bother with shifted phosphor bands, nor imperf's, or even coils. Perfed all around coils are not coils in my mind!
And where are the large format 2'6d, 5', 10' & £1 stamps? Why they are back 20 or so pages lumped in with the high value Castle series from 1955! Why?
Please tell me that SG Concise is better organized, and with a better numbering system than ATN(t)1d! What is that? Good grief! I should really get it, as most dealers use it for numbering.
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angore
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What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on May 10, 2020 18:41:55 GMT
In my 2018 concise, they are scattered
Sterling is in the main catalog
Decimals are in the back sorted by X,Y,U. Intermixed with these are the numbers without a prefix in chronological groups. For example 1667 (1st bright orange) is between the X and Y listings.
The ones I want to identify are the initial self-adhesive NVI's (stanard and Large). I see die cut different (rounded vs more straight) but cannot find how to identify each printer.
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Post by feebletodix on May 11, 2020 8:05:22 GMT
I think what you need is in the next couple of scans from my '13 concise which had a special on Machins, 30 pages. The first is a list which details who printed what and the second is a description of the major die variations.  Table of who printed what  Description of die-cut variations And here is some encouragement, a page I put together a few years ago  |
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angore
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What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on May 11, 2020 23:00:23 GMT
feebletodix Here are some examples. SG U2977/ 2298 - how do I tell the printers 2039 / 2040 (not minor variety) - Enschede vs Wallsall vs Questa. Can you tell by die cuts? I know the dagger perf.
I do not have pairs to check the distance between stamps. The Questa per above can be determined by phosphor width.
Centre band (blue) phosphor (4.5mm) OFNP Enschedé Apr 6/98 Coil, vert OFNP Enschedé May 9/02 Jul 4/02 'Sheet' of 100 OFNP Walsall Jun 22/98 'Sheet' of 100 OFNP Walsall Jan 29/01 Booklet
Centre band (blue) phosphor (5mm) OFNP Questa Jan 29/01 Booklet OFNP Questa (4mm bars) Jul 4/02 Booklet
I want to associate each to printer. For example, if you samples, is each type unique to a printer?
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angore
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What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on May 11, 2020 23:38:24 GMT
Here is another cross reference. I do not know what type means in the printing column but not clear if die cuts can determine which prints. I also do know what "matrix" is either.
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Post by feebletodix on May 12, 2020 8:06:08 GMT
Al, I have not seen that last table before so what the printing type is I have no idea, one would have hoped there would have been an explanation near the table. The screening on the phosphor might be a useful identifyer, like the band width of the Questa issues. Your quest though is far beyond my knowledge and I am at a loss as to how to help you further.
I assume the 'matrix' is the paper outside of the die cut.
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angore
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What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on May 12, 2020 15:42:14 GMT
feebletodixThe challenge is using references that require far more knowledge than I have with all the codes.
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rex
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Post by rex on May 12, 2020 16:48:33 GMT
Gold horizon labels... can't even find it in my SG catalog..?...  ... mah....?  |
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angore
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What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on May 13, 2020 17:22:13 GMT
I am not as specialist oriented as some.
I collect as a base SG concise. I will collect screen values, thick/thin values, head types (head a/b or eme) and stamps with straight edge. This applies to per-self-adhesives. I usually avoid low /high values, gum, paper, short bars, blue vs violet tagging, format (coil, sheet, booklet), etc. For self-adhesives and security I may want a sample from each printer but not going to get into security with all those date codes and die cuts.
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rex
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Post by rex on May 13, 2020 20:22:11 GMT
Im not a specialist,.. but even if they have a lot of variations I still like to collect and cataloging them, me to with a SG concise. Many years ago I went in London to a stamp shop, I don't remember the name, but is precisely in front , opposite of Stanley Gibbons in Strand, .. well, once in ..I asked to see some machins, the gentleman behind the counter looked at me and said .....how much time have you got ..??!
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Londonbus1
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Cinderella Stamp Club Member 3059
Posts: 5,064
What I collect: Wonderland; 1912 Jubilee International Stamp Exhibition, London ('Ideal' Stamp, ephemera); French Cinderellas with an emphasis on Poster Stamps; Israel and Palestine Cinderellas ; Jewish National Fund Stamps, Labels and Tags; London 2010, A Festival of Stamps (anything); South Africa 1937 Coronation issue of KGVI, singles or bi-lingual pairs.
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Post by Londonbus1 on May 14, 2020 6:17:54 GMT
The Stamp Centre opposite Gibbons is still there but today they specialize in Dr.Who memorabilia. (As well as stamps) !!
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rex
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Post by rex on May 14, 2020 7:26:04 GMT
Im glad it's still there, ..I remember that day I bought the machins and an A4 card full of penny red . If the selling of dr. who memorabilia will help to keep the shop open, better this way. |
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angore
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What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on May 15, 2020 12:17:11 GMT
I am back working on how I will organize my collection and made a mock up page. I need a system that is flexibility to allow adding varieties without redoing a lot of work. I do not seek out every difference but if I discover it I may want to add it. This is likely an intermediate stage if I want to commit to album pages. I am now trying to using Vario 8 pocket pages with labels on alternate rows for standard size Machins, Decisions to make: 1. label content 2. label position (above or below) 3. Label style - individual vs strip (strip moves around less) 4. Number per row (related to labeling) 5. Minimizing toner usage (printer does not really like printing solid. Imagine cutting a lot of little labels? 6. Need to use different size Vario for larger issues 7. Organization (pre-decimal, decimal, denomination, printer, etc), I would like some historical context (eras). Always open to other ideas.
These are Sterling (pre-decimal) issues except the large format.
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brightonpete
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Post by brightonpete on May 15, 2020 13:16:48 GMT
That is what I should do with the decimal's. The Sterling's are fairly complete, just a few holes, so printing out is possible. I just need to fiddle with them before I print out the pages.
Post Sterling's is crazy! So many, but for now I stop before the security feature laden issues appear!
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angore
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What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on May 15, 2020 13:41:38 GMT
As I look at the label text is too far away from stamp. You may not immediately tell if describing above or below. I think below works better since I can shift the label closer to stamp.  |
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anglobob
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What I collect: France and French Colonies,French cinderellas British Commonwealth QE2
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Post by anglobob on May 19, 2020 1:02:47 GMT
Most Machins are now self-adhesive with security slits and source and date codes.I have put together a collection of ordinary gum stamps,with source and and date codes but without the security slits.These can only be found in Prestige Books.These books have become more and more expensive and most collectors do not break them up for postage.This was also my first attempt at designing a page.I listed the Prestige Book where each stamp could be found but the stamp covered the Gibbons catalogue number !Gibbons then renumbered these stamps.For example,the 68p Dahl stamp changed from U3005 to U3060. This collection stops after the 2015 Great War 1.33 value.  |
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angore
Member
Posts: 5,696
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on May 19, 2020 16:02:01 GMT
Prestige booklets are expensive. I think SG changed the color of one of the recent slate blue 50p issues recently when they decided to give it a different color.
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anglobob
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What I collect: France and French Colonies,French cinderellas British Commonwealth QE2
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Post by anglobob on May 19, 2020 16:50:13 GMT
angore ....To my old eyes,the 50p here is two different colours but both are listed as slate-blue.I have also seen it described as slate=grey.Maybe a difference due to two different printers,Enschede and Cartor ? This is what makes collecting Machins infuriating...!!!! 
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anglobob
Member
Posts: 2,602
What I collect: France and French Colonies,French cinderellas British Commonwealth QE2
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Post by anglobob on May 20, 2020 13:49:39 GMT
Litho Machins which were only found in Prestige books.I have a hard time with all the colour variations of the 5p value so I kept the pane remnant attached to the stamps.   |
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Londonbus1
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Cinderella Stamp Club Member 3059
Posts: 5,064
What I collect: Wonderland; 1912 Jubilee International Stamp Exhibition, London ('Ideal' Stamp, ephemera); French Cinderellas with an emphasis on Poster Stamps; Israel and Palestine Cinderellas ; Jewish National Fund Stamps, Labels and Tags; London 2010, A Festival of Stamps (anything); South Africa 1937 Coronation issue of KGVI, singles or bi-lingual pairs.
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Post by Londonbus1 on Jun 8, 2020 17:11:32 GMT
Rushstamps made a good business by overprinting the margins of the 'Boots' Label panes. They even advertised their own business that way !!  |
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... mah....?