stainlessb
Member 
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,903
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
|
Post by stainlessb on Sept 11, 2021 16:51:25 GMT
sometimes I wonder if I spend too much time looking at stamps? Marianne du Gandon series offers color/shades, paper types, perforation variations, reverse printing, image flaws (whichI suppose could be described as 'errors" ), and several recognized variants, typically defined by a specific plate variation, a missing/incomplete letter, or sometimes it is a combination of several of these described variations that determines a specific "Type", generally for a specific denomination(s). "TYPE" however may mean different things for different denominations - 1st image below is a "NORMAL stamp/image",For this series, most of the recognized Types have to do with Mariannes hair! (what's a girl to do?!?) If you scroll back I show the first one of these, and for those who don't wish to scroll back: On the left side of Marianne's face, below the hat, the 2nd wisp of hair (and the first long one) has a definite and and there is a gap where it gets near the next longest 'wisp'- the variant related to this hair trait would connect to the next longest wisp (no gap) It is fairly easy to see. The next varaint focuses on the last (lowest ) wisps of hair on her neck (left side) NORMAL is as shown, 2 wisps that end as one- In this variation for this, tLower 'wisp is broken into two parts- This one is a bit harder to spot. The next variant/Type has to do with the other side of the neck and focuses on the last wisps (roughly starting parallel to the T down towards the bottom- Normal is 3 small hairs, and occasionally there will be specks and what I call 'printers noise" but nothing definitive. There is a described variant that has multiple /extra (supplemental) hair. And one variant which includes the extra neck hairs plus Cortots name at the bottomextending beyond the right frame.  so here is an example of the extra neck hairs (and the right side of the 'cheek" is not well defined in this example, though this does not seem to be a characteristic of all 'fuzzy necks" This particuoar variant is noted on the 15 Franc red Y&T 813 and is considered a Type II (Type I is 'NOMAL), and 15 Franc blue Y&T 886 Type II (Type II has Cotots name extending beyond the right frame  While following my latest routine of examining all additional stamps for which I have pages made and stamps mounted, I came across these (both in the same scan!) both have "fuzzy necks and neither are listed in the catalogues I have (including the most recent Y&T 2021) 
The 12 Franc blue below almost looks like a double impression(??)  ...now I need to back and look through all the others (For the 15 red where this varant is listed, I have been unable to find any examples! |
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,903
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
|
Post by stainlessb on Sept 11, 2021 19:10:40 GMT
Found another 12 Franc Blue that is a bit clearer! have a look-  |
|
racatrien
Member
Fan of Madagascar, Mauritius, Reunion (Indian Ocean more widely) but also everything else....
Posts: 150
|
Post by racatrien on Sept 11, 2021 22:54:40 GMT
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,903
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
|
Post by stainlessb on Sept 11, 2021 23:13:30 GMT
Very nice racatrien ! I do not have many with the advertisement selvedge. I will look (I have a few, but not to the extent of yours!) |
|
racatrien
Member
Fan of Madagascar, Mauritius, Reunion (Indian Ocean more widely) but also everything else....
Posts: 150
|
Post by racatrien on Sept 11, 2021 23:22:33 GMT
I'm frenchy, it's easier. French stamps with advertising are also my hobby😉
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,903
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
|
Post by stainlessb on Sept 11, 2021 23:28:01 GMT
I wish I had a stronger interest in US stamps-- when I returned to the hobby (several years ago) my plan was to get rid of all WW and focus on US. As I started sorting and cataloguing to know what I had i was bitten buy early western Europe (mostly).... The US stamps have seldom come out of the numerous boxes and binders they are housed in!
I am currently looking at pile sof roughly sorted stamps from the last soakings, maybe 1000, and the majority are France, but this is the last of what needs to be sorted and put away- then comes the task of deciding what to keep and what to go!
Other countries in Europe are waiting!
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,903
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
|
Post by stainlessb on Sept 14, 2021 0:00:33 GMT
Having started looking at all stamps before I decide how to categorize/file- I came across something that (I think ) may be interesting. Marianne du Gandon Y&T # 713 Green is the only color listed (in Maury Ceres & Dallay) Y&T list a second color Dark green, however there do seem to be more color shades (leaning towards blue tones). However, that's not what this is about- 1st scan below is a fairly typical for how POSTES appears, sometimes a bit thinner, but fairly uniform.  The next scan is of an entire stamp with POSTES being 'thin, and it also has a more blu influenced shade, but it also has a "crippled "P" The lower leg is missing, however, this is not recognized, and i have seen other examples, so while not common, I don't think it a rarity.  At some point in the printing of this stamp, there were plate images that did POSTES is absent (713m) , and POSTE lacking the final "S" (713p) and lastly , POSTES with a retouched S, which I interpret to mean the S was added back to the plate (s)... I'd love to know if the POSTE without the S occurred while adding POSTES to the plates, the person given the task to correct this almost corrected everything. The stamp below definitely has a few issues, it is used and appears to be on chamois/buff paper), but the image has numerous printing flaws, a "scar" on the forehead, a 'cleft pallet", close to anneau lune between the R and the F, and POSTES has mutliple issues, the bottom close of the P is missing, there is a gap in the O, the T has a short leg and the "S" out of place and not straight. I cannot find any in depth information regarding how one determines if the S is retouched, but this particular stamp differs, And it is almost the highest CV of those described - the highest CV goes to 713 d - dentelé tenant à non dentelé (serrated holding to imperforate) if someone can better translate this I would be most appreciative- I take it to mean a stamp that is both perforate and imperforate  |
|
darkormex
Member
Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,197 
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
|
Post by darkormex on Sept 14, 2021 1:12:04 GMT
stainlessb , perhaps one might better describe the stamp above as the Marianne de Dali! Also, I don't know how deep you want to go into the Marianne de Gandon issues but I ran across this auction that I thought might interest you. It sold for €38,000 but the amount of time and effort is priceless. Truly a labor of love of this stamp series. The Marianne de Gandon Issue
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,903
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
|
Post by stainlessb on Sept 14, 2021 1:20:15 GMT
darkormex That might be a bit deeper than i'm looking to dive in, but I wonder, if what is seen, if that's everything and it fetched that kind of a price!?! Thanks for sharing the link! and I just noticed her right eye is a bit strange also.... maybe more Marianne du Picasso ? nothing but fun! 
|
|
darkormex
Member
Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,197
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
|
Post by darkormex on Sept 14, 2021 2:14:40 GMT
No it isn't everything. They said in the auction blurb they were only able to show a few things on the site. I am guessing the whole collection is quite a thing to see.
"This collection is extensive, and although impossible to illustrate everything in this catalogue we have endeavoured to give the reader a flavour of the depth and variety tha it contains; some of the highlights for each value are described and presented in the subsequent pages"
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,837
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
|
Post by JeffS on Sept 14, 2021 13:19:14 GMT
Re the 2F “blue”. Color changelings from green to blue (in general) are not uncommon.
|
|
renden
Member
Posts: 9,162
What I collect: Canada-USA-France-Lithuania-Austria--Germany-Mauritius-French Colonies in Africa
|
Post by renden on Sept 14, 2021 13:47:55 GMT
Re the 2F “blue”. Color changelings from green to blue (in general) are not uncommon. Stan and Jeff - the 2f 1945 Marianne is described as "green" (vert) in the new Maury Ed - Maury 713 26 Feb 1945 - No blue described ?? so Maury is competing with Y&T on colours !! |
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,903
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
|
Post by stainlessb on Sept 14, 2021 15:00:23 GMT
Jeff- i had considered color changelings- There is the 5 Francs denomination (also green, different shade) released 9 days after the 2 Francs- I do not know for certain, but I'm guessing same printer, which would involve the same primary inks, although having worked as a printer when i was much younger, (Rotary, State of California... for almost 2 years... boring job once the press was set up for a run) and the smallest of changes in the percentage of primaries , white or black, could make a noticeable difference.....anyway I digress. I will post a scan shortly of the variations in the 2F and also show the 5F (at least to my eyes... and the scanner!) If blue is what comes through in the changeling, then it must be the yellow that is not stable. The earlier Sage 5 centimes has a wide variation in shades, but nothing approaching blue, yet, by some references, there are as many as 14 shades of green in the Type II The subject of 'shades/nuances" is sometime a paradox- I have answered dealers questions at shows about what I am looking for, and when I sayI am looking for shades or a specific shade variety , most tell me they don't differentiate. Once I aske a seller on e-bay if he post a side-by-side scan of 3 stamps he offered individually so I could see color variation better and the response was, no, they are all the same (though clearly the individuals cans showed variations) Many think I'm just deranged René- can't wait for my copy to arrive! |
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,903
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
|
Post by stainlessb on Sept 14, 2021 18:36:31 GMT
Below two "greens" according to the catalogues- released 9 days apart. the 2 Francs is described as vert (green) and the 5 Francs as vert fonce (dark green) -an example of the difficulty of shades/color varieties- I can't believe this is a 'lost in translation' situation keep in mind- if I scanned individually- the scanner might see them slightly differently- but should you give the general idea!  |
|
renden
Member
Posts: 9,162
What I collect: Canada-USA-France-Lithuania-Austria--Germany-Mauritius-French Colonies in Africa
|
Post by renden on Sept 14, 2021 18:53:57 GMT
Below two "greens" according to the catalogues- released 9 days apart. the 2 centimes is described as vert (green) and the 5 centimes as vert fonce (dark green) -an example of the difficulty of shades/color varieties- I can't believe this is a 'lost in translation' situation keep in mind- if I scanned individually- the scanner might see them slightly differently- but should you give the general idea! Stan The 5c 1947 Marianne exists in 3 colors: Maury 719 5f dark green; Maury 719A 5f rose; Maury 719B 5f blue René |
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,903
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
|
Post by stainlessb on Sept 14, 2021 19:40:35 GMT
Stan The 5c 1947 Marianne exists in 3 colors: Maury 719 5f dark green; Maury 719A 5f rose; Maury 719B 5f blue René yes, but I can easily tell red from blue from green!!!  although a goodly amount of variance with those as well... all in due time!  |
|
ameis33
Member
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 546
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
|
Post by ameis33 on Sept 14, 2021 20:01:34 GMT
French Marianne, german flowers, british machine, in Italy we had nice definitive issue, but that time has gone...
|
|
racatrien
Member
Fan of Madagascar, Mauritius, Reunion (Indian Ocean more widely) but also everything else....
Posts: 150
|
Post by racatrien on Sept 14, 2021 21:15:22 GMT
In my Yvert two types are distinguished for the 5 f, 719 green from 1945 and 809 light green from 1948. It is true that even for us it is complicated because Yvert used the same visual for both. Here is what I concluded on my side with my research but nothing certain (photo).  |
|
ameis33
Member
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 546
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
|
Post by ameis33 on Sept 14, 2021 21:18:53 GMT
Isn't the second stamp a 809 too?
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,903
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
|
Post by stainlessb on Sept 14, 2021 21:30:38 GMT
ameis33 the glory days when stamps were works of art! I find most modern stamps boring as all heck! but back to Marianne du Gandon # 713 a couple of less exciting (perhaps) plate variants/oddities) First- recognized for other denominations, but not for this- the upper strands of hair, just below the cap are connected (should have a break between them)  next is less exciting and rather minor, but a broken P in POSTES  and thus concludes my examination of all 2 Francs Y&T 713 that I possess!
|
|
racatrien
Member
Fan of Madagascar, Mauritius, Reunion (Indian Ocean more widely) but also everything else....
Posts: 150
|
Post by racatrien on Sept 14, 2021 21:50:33 GMT
Very beautiful this "haïr connected" but no information concerning this variety in my books. Here is what I found more detailed in Dallay.  |
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,903
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
|
Post by stainlessb on Sept 14, 2021 22:16:04 GMT
racatrien I was surprised when I found it! my reference also show no mention... I see you must be using Dallay's reference? it is the one I do not have- Below is a page from Maury Ceres & Dallay, almost the same, but it includes the retouche S 
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,903
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
|
Post by stainlessb on Sept 14, 2021 23:15:18 GMT
This is probably it for today- my eyes are tired, but, here is #715 3 Francs and bottom right CORTOT , normally bottom border is straight and not "infringed upon"called out as Sepia- The F for Francs got definitely short changed, missing both "arms", and the bottom right- CORTOT should be below lower border, which should be stright (sometimes a slight bow in the middle.... but not like this!  |
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,903
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
|
Post by stainlessb on Sept 14, 2021 23:17:37 GMT
In my Yvert two types are distinguished for the 5 f, 719 green from 1945 and 809 light green from 1948. It is true that even for us it is complicated because Yvert used the same visual for both. Here is what I concluded on my side with my research but nothing certain (photo). my 4 to the right may well be the 1945 issue- My Vario page is all mixed up for that denomination, so soon that should be resolved....sorry for the red herring above  |
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,903
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
|
Post by stainlessb on Sept 15, 2021 16:04:35 GMT
Another day and rested eyes! #716Aa 3 Francs vert (green) anneau lune (moon ring... not always symmetrical)  |
|
WERT
Departed
Rest in Peace
Posts: 1,062
What I collect: Canada and Provinces
|
Post by WERT on Sept 15, 2021 16:11:18 GMT
Nice little donut Stan...
Robert
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,903
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
|
Post by stainlessb on Sept 15, 2021 20:31:22 GMT
Here's a fun one! # 716b 3 Franc pale rose or it could be the later pale Lilac.... For now Marianne on abad hair day! - On the left side of head below hat: there should be a short strand, followed by a long strand with three stands below (from upper to lower) short-short and long- looking farther down, just a plain bad hair day! This could be caused by what appears to be a possible double impression, but that doesn't explain all the extra hairs  |
|
|
|
Post by biglavalamp on Sept 16, 2021 18:05:22 GMT
stainlessb is there a web site with these marianne differences
|
|
renden
Member
Posts: 9,162
What I collect: Canada-USA-France-Lithuania-Austria--Germany-Mauritius-French Colonies in Africa
|
Post by renden on Sept 16, 2021 18:16:14 GMT
Here's a fun one! # 716b 3 Franc pale rose or it could be the later pale Lilac.... For now Marianne on abad hair day! - On the left side of head below hat: there should be a short strand, followed by a long strand with three stands below (from upper to lower) short-short and long- looking farther down, just a plain bad hair day! This could be caused by what appears to be a possible double impression, but that doesn't explain all the extra hairs Not documented in MAURY 2022 cat. - René |
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,903
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
|
Post by stainlessb on Sept 16, 2021 18:34:31 GMT
biglavalamp - It would be great if there was, but not that I am aware of any- There are "descriptions" within each denomination in some of the catalogues, and also some recognized "TYPES" which have more details (including graphics.... although some are still difficult to see due to low pixel quality) There are numerous catalogued works on the stamps of France* - although some will be listed /recognized in one and not the other (same for color varieties). As an example I mention the ' retouche S' which I think I have an example of, but beyond the worded description I have not (yet) found anything to collaborate with or discard my example- so * IMHO, the better works are all written in French renden many of the print "irregularities" are not mentioned- but they do exist racatrien shows many Sower irregularities that are not listed If I used Scott as my reference I'd have no need to look and most of my definitive issues would be complete! LOL
|
|
although a goodly amount of variance with those as well... 
