skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on May 26, 2021 2:57:04 GMT
Hi Mark The first 2d blue you posted does look like SG2 - London Print. Distinguished by its shade, clarity of print and the 'blueing' effect on the back. The rest look to me like Davies prints - SG36 mainly - including that wet print one (overinked). So you have SG2 and SG3. Have you got an SG1 !? :-) Well done Dave Hi Dave, Unfortunately, I don't have a SG1, they are too difficult to tell from the Davies prints and it seems like everyone is trying to find one so any 1d imperforate with a star is in demand just incase it is a SG1. Here are the 2ds side by side to see the color differences Certified one is top left.
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on May 26, 2021 3:00:50 GMT
P.S. what is a double print (SG36a)? and what does it look like?
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gc
Member
Posts: 289
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Post by gc on May 26, 2021 8:39:45 GMT
P.S. what is a double print (SG36a)? and what does it look like? Hi Mark I agree with Dave re your 2d's. Without a close look I feel only the first one is SG2, the others look like the SG36-39 group. Here are some of mine to show you shade variations. SG2 ( two copies and on cover ) Next is the SG36-39 group on star watermark paper ( note the progressive plate wear ) SG36 Deep Bright Blue SG36 Bright Blue SG36 Dull Deep Blue SG36 Deep Blue on cover ( 27 August 1862 ) SG36 Blue ( Wet Print ) SG37 Slate Blue two copies ( first copy is very close to Ultramarine, I would argue it is actually Ultramarine, although it has a certificate as Slate Blue ) SG37a Pale or Milky Blue SG38 Blue SG38 Blue on cover ( certificate says blue but it is very close to Greenish Blue ) SG38 Pale Greenish Blue SG38 Greenish Blue SG39 Blue showing "21" part double cancellation of Invercargill SG39 Blue SG39 Blue showing recut left frame line Row 10, No 5 SG39 Blue showing light CDS "B2" of Richmond dated 11 Feb 1864 Cheers Grant
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on May 26, 2021 17:29:37 GMT
Here are some interesting watermarks with the star paper. I think the four lines are the edge of the paper as can be seen by the wide margins. The one in the middle is interesting since it appears to have a border, but not the four lines. It also has wide margins, but not as wide as the others. Where there two types of large star paper, one with four lines and one with just a single line? The perforations look fake, but why fake this stamp? Update: the wide margins in the middle stamp are on the wrong side of the watermark "border" Here is some information from Lee and Watts (2009) showing the design and text on the selvage of the star watermark. So the right hand stamp looks like it has part of the P. It is not clear, but the middle stamp may be a corner stamp and just shows the bottom solid line of the pattern (Lee and Watts does not show the whole sheet, and it is not clear if the 4 lines go all the way across or only the bottom line as depicted (since it is slightly longer in the figure) or if the bottom line meets the vertical line in the corner).
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on May 26, 2021 18:23:28 GMT
Looking at SG5 - Richardson 2d Blue on 'Blue' paper - SG lists it as just one shade 'blue' - whereas CP lists two shades 'blue' and 'pale blue' - A2b (1) & A2b (2). Looking at the few SG5's I have today, and I have thought about this previously, there appears to me to be three shades in this stamp! See the below pics. I seem to have a deep blue, a greenish blue and a pale blue (looks like a 'dry' print, certainly not worn). Apart from the 'official' CP catalogue listings does anybody in the know know of any other shades in this stamp? Remember, this is the Richardson on 'blue' paper printing of 1855-57. and a pair of the pale (dry) printing as per the 3rd stamp in the 1st picture above Dave Dave, I just scanned in my blue paper Richardson's. Looks like a graduation of colors. (note that scanners have different color representations, these are all done on the same scanner, but each one seperately). The darker ones look like there is some color change by age or some other process.
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on May 26, 2021 18:29:58 GMT
Here is an interesting line on the stamp. Possible a flaw in the paper before printing?
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WERT
Departed
Rest in Peace
Posts: 1,062
What I collect: Canada and Provinces
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Post by WERT on May 26, 2021 19:14:58 GMT
Hi skid I looked at your stamp with a few of my software programs and bottom line for me { just my opinion } is there was a hair/fiber stuck on the printing process and probably fell off.
Robert
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on May 26, 2021 22:58:56 GMT
Yes, it could be a hair or from a brush. So, that could be evidence that Richardson had strait hair or he used a brush to apply the ink.
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 27, 2021 8:02:11 GMT
Here are some interesting watermarks with the star paper. I think the four lines are the edge of the paper as can be seen by the wide margins. The one in the middle is interesting since it appears to have a border, but not the four lines. It also has wide margins, but not as wide as the others. Where there two types of large star paper, one with four lines and one with just a single line? All 3 of your shown stamps are from the edge of the sheet. The one with the single wmk line seems, from the scanned pages you later show, comes from near the word 'POSTAGE' in the sheet wmk. Dave
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 27, 2021 8:04:24 GMT
I just scanned in my blue paper Richardson's. Looks like a graduation of colors. (note that scanners have different color representations, these are all done on the same scanner, but each one seperately). The darker ones look like there is some color change by age or some other process. A couple of the 'darker' ones there, Mark, look like they may be affected by oxidation. You know how to treat that :-) Dave
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 27, 2021 8:08:15 GMT
Here are some of mine to show you shade variations. Lovely examples yet again Grant :-) Those ones with the CDS cancellations of B2 and E5 are from the Nelson Postal District. I have a 6d brown imperf SG43 somewhere here with a C3 postmark. I will find it this weekend and scan it in. Dave
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 28, 2021 22:25:57 GMT
Those ones with the CDS cancellations of B2 and E5 are from the Nelson Postal District. I have a 6d brown imperf SG43 somewhere here with a C3 postmark. I will find it this weekend and scan it in. There was a series of Letter Number CDS datestamps used in the Nelson District from about 1862 for a few years. They went A 1 / B 2 / C 3 / D 4 / E 5 / etc to M 13. Grant has shown a couple of these above in B 2 & E 5 : B 2 being allocated to Richmond E 5 being allocated to Wakefield I believe this one I have is C 3 which is of unknown allocation Now, the C looks like a G here, and it may well be, but, I cannot find any datestamps with a G 3 allocation in my RPSNZ volumes so am assuming (always unsafe) that this is C 3. Interestingly I found a G 1 & a G 2 listed under Southland Postal District - G 1 being Gore and G 2 being Gummy's Bush (presumably Gold Rush era!!) but no G 3. Dave
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 28, 2021 22:33:46 GMT
A couple of items just received in : The 1/- with a nice partial CDS of Gisborne and a 2d orange with a partial CDS of Wangarei dated Apr 1873. Dave
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Post by tundrawolf on May 28, 2021 22:58:27 GMT
Here is one to add to the Nelson series, D4, location unknown. Philip
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 28, 2021 23:32:56 GMT
Nice Philip.
A very crisp (steel-like) cancellation there :-) Very clear!
Now to find A 1 / F 6 / G 7 etc etc
Dave
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 28, 2021 23:36:45 GMT
Here are some interesting watermarks with the star paper. I think the four lines are the edge of the paper as can be seen by the wide margins. The one in the middle is interesting since it appears to have a border, but not the four lines. Here is an example of a margin wmk showing partial letters of what I presume is the word 'POSTAGE'. It is on an 1864-71 Davies 2d blue SG114 :
Dave
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Post by tundrawolf on May 28, 2021 23:57:23 GMT
Nice additional info on the P-o-A postmarks Philip - and nice examples shown too :-) Just going back to your interest previously on the INVICTA-lozenge bank draft paper, I have just seen Andrew Murphys ( murfz1 ) web pages on this subject. May be of interest to you Philip : INVICTA wmk examples
Dave Dave, thanks for the link to Andrew Murphy's examples and Andrew, WOW, those examples change my understanding completely. The IN example above proves that the paper was used reversed and your example with lozenge and letters, the letters being the top of the I and small side of the V, is also reversed. So we now have examples reading correctly from the front and back of the stamps. The problem with this is that many examples don't have sufficient of the letters showing to know which way they were printed so we can't make assumptions from the plated examples about the position of the watermark. More examples and more study required. Andrew can you post your examples here. Philip
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 28, 2021 23:59:48 GMT
Further to Skid's post on the vertical bars obliterators, here's one of the one's missing from the NZ Stamp Collector article, not on a chalon unfortunately, but the only one I've seen so far. Philip Here is a similar 'W' of Wellington with vertical bars obliterator. It is on an 1864-71 Davies 6d red-brown SG122 Dave
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Post by tundrawolf on May 29, 2021 0:11:59 GMT
Dave, Volume 1 of the handbooks say's the star paper had 5 lines around the border with the 4 outer lines broken to include the word postage 6 times around the margins. Your example is consistent with that description. It also say's that marginal stamps from the plates for the 3d, 4d and 2d plate 2, always encroach on the selvedge watermark due to the printed area being a little wider than the original plates.
Philip
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 29, 2021 0:28:35 GMT
Picture 'stolen' from the internet to show the outer 5 lines of the sheet wmk. The first line of the 5 is down the line of perforations. No 'POSTAGE' letters seen here but clearly shows the edge of the sheet and the wmk around it. Dave
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murfz1
Member
Posts: 51
What I collect: New Zealand Chalons and Associated Material
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Post by murfz1 on May 29, 2021 12:34:26 GMT
Geoff Rickards published a note in the NZ Stamp Collector 99/2 on the Obliterators with vertical bars. They are also listed in PSNZ Vol III. There are only six of them. The 21 here is Invercargill. Skid I think there is only 4 "Vertical Bar" Cancellations that were used through the Chalon period. I have posted below a selection from my collection of the Vertical Bar Cancellations. Interesting was going back and looking at the article in Vol. 99 No.2 of the NZ Stamp Collector where Geoff Rickards used a "3" Cancellation to show example of "Horizontal Bar" cancels and had this one as being from "Waipawa". I have what I believe to be the same "3" cancellation and I have it catalogued as "Wairau Valley" looking at Geoff's and mine and re-reading Vol. 7 page 220 of the Postage Stamps of New Zealand, Geoff is definitely correct as the top of the "3" is not level with the adjacent bars. I have shown to examples of the hard to get "W" of Wellington. Regards Andrew
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murfz1
Member
Posts: 51
What I collect: New Zealand Chalons and Associated Material
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Post by murfz1 on May 29, 2021 12:56:08 GMT
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murfz1
Member
Posts: 51
What I collect: New Zealand Chalons and Associated Material
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Post by murfz1 on May 29, 2021 22:17:14 GMT
Further to Skid's post on the vertical bars obliterators, here's one of the one's missing from the NZ Stamp Collector article, not on a chalon unfortunately, but the only one I've seen so far. Philip Here is a similar 'W' of Wellington with vertical bars obliterator. It is on an 1864-71 Davies 6d red-brown SG122 Dave I would like to see if anyone has the below example of the larger "W" on a Chalon, I suspect it was brought in to service after the Chalon Period? Nice to see the Cancellation. Andrew
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murfz1
Member
Posts: 51
What I collect: New Zealand Chalons and Associated Material
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Post by murfz1 on May 29, 2021 22:27:26 GMT
I have started looking through the collection for the circular date stamps "Letter and Number" series to see if I have any examples. This is what I love about the Chalon's and this period, so many things to collect and research. I found another "L" series Lyttleton "L 15 of Arowhenua used 1863. Regards Andrew
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 29, 2021 22:49:28 GMT
Nice L 15 Andrew.
I love these Letter/Number CDS's. Only used from 1862 for a few years - during the 1860's !
Dave
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 29, 2021 22:53:15 GMT
Here are 3 shades of the 1862-1864 Davies series 2d blue rouletted 7 in Auckland : SG50 Slate (Ultramarine in this case) & SG51 Pale and Milky Blue Dave
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 29, 2021 23:02:34 GMT
I would like to see if anyone has the below example of the larger "W" on a Chalon, I suspect it was brought in to service after the Chalon Period? Nice to see the Cancellation. From what I can see in Vol.3 page 58 fig.9 it would appear that this cancel came out in the very late 1870's (perhaps 1878-79) so should NOT be seen on Chalons as these were last printed in late 1873. But we shall keep a look out with our copies - just in case :-) Dave
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Post by tundrawolf on May 30, 2021 2:24:49 GMT
Here's a poor copy of the Wairau Valley obliterator, the clearest difference between this and the Waipawa obliterator is the curved line above the number for Wairau Valley and a clear gap above the number for Waipawa. Philip
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Post by tundrawolf on May 30, 2021 2:26:58 GMT
Any certificates for those roulette 7's Dave?
Philip
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 30, 2021 2:41:47 GMT
Any certificates for those roulette 7's Dave? Philip Unfortunately not Philip. I don't have many certificates for my Chalons. Any I do have would have come with ones I have bought with them. To be fair I am not a member of the RPSNZ nor have I contacts with Robert Odenweller or other notables in the field. Should the need arise, and I see that day coming, I shall join the RPSNZ and make use of their expertization services. I believe that in the past some doubt may have been expressed about the middle 2d shown (Pale Blue one) but even if not genuine I can console myself that it has a 'DRURY' NZ Wars period cancel :-) What are your thoughts? Dave
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