murfz1
Member 
Posts: 51
What I collect: New Zealand Chalons and Associated Material
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Post by murfz1 on May 30, 2021 4:58:39 GMT
Here are 3 shades of the 1862-1864 Davies series 2d blue rouletted 7 in Auckland : SG50 Slate (Ultramarine in this case) & SG51 Pale and Milky Blue   Dave Here's a certified SG.49 Deep Blue to go with yours Dave   Regards Andrew |
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gc
Member
Posts: 289
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Post by gc on May 30, 2021 5:41:42 GMT
Gentleman
Here is a question for today.
Correct if I am wrong, but why do 99% of roulette 7 Chalons have the tuffs of paper on them. Where are all the ones that must have been left with a recess, when they were pulled apart ?
There's a thought for the day
Cheers Grant
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gc
Member
Posts: 289
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Post by gc on May 30, 2021 5:46:45 GMT
Nice Philip. A very crisp (steel-like) cancellation there :-) Very clear! Now to find A 1 / F 6 / G 7 etc etc Dave Hey Dave Where does this one fit in. Looks like a W8 of Wharema 
Also an L1 of the Canterbury Postal Area  |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 30, 2021 7:46:52 GMT
Where does this one fit in. Looks like a W8 of Wharema If you look at vol.3 of the RPSNZ books you will see under page 59 for Wellington that the W number series ran from W 1 to W 15. For W 8 it says (see Napier District). So we go to the Napier section on page 54 where it says : "Although Waipawa and Waipukurau were in the Hawkes Bay Postal District, they used Wellington District Cancellations for a period. The Wellington District type date-stamp with W 8 was used at Waipawa. The obliterator supplied to this office was no.7 (the oblit. with horiz. bars and number 3 that Philip showed us just before) and it was identical in type with the obliterator employed at Wairau Valley in the Blenheim District. The Waipawa obliterator was in commission at an early date. Mr C.F Bulley of Melbourne has two covers on which the postage stamps were cancelled with no.7 and on which there are also impressions of the Waipawa date-stamp of March 31 and July 7, 1864. Because Waipawa had a distinctive date-stamp in 1864, the Wellington type with W 8 was probably used as a 'relief'." Dave |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 30, 2021 7:47:48 GMT
Beautiful copies of the W 8 and L 1 cancels too Grant :-)
Dave
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 30, 2021 7:49:40 GMT
Gentleman Here is a question for today. Correct if I am wrong, but why do 99% of roulette 7 Chalons have the tuffs of paper on them. Where are all the ones that must have been left with a recess, when they were pulled apart ? There's a thought for the day Cheers Grant A very good question Grant! I have pondered this one myself before as well, but have never asked the question. I guess we all need to check our copies and see if we have any that fits the answer ... To be continued ... Dave |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 30, 2021 7:56:55 GMT
Here's a certified SG.49 Bright Blue to go with yours Dave Nice one Andrew. At least with yours being certified (Odenweller no doubt!) then at least we know what good roulettes look like :-) Dave |
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murfz1
Member
Posts: 51
What I collect: New Zealand Chalons and Associated Material
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Post by murfz1 on May 30, 2021 10:49:57 GMT
SG.49 - 2d Deep Blue Roulette 7 Yes Odenweller Cert 37305 attached for those that haven't seen an official certificate.  Regards Andrew |
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on May 30, 2021 15:27:17 GMT
Gentleman Here is a question for today. Correct if I am wrong, but why do 99% of roulette 7 Chalons have the tuffs of paper on them. Where are all the ones that must have been left with a recess, when they were pulled apart ? There's a thought for the day Cheers Grant This uncertified 1d shows some (middle of left, bottom of left, and right of bottom, and I have a 6d that shows more and will scan that when I get a chance.  |
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gc
Member
Posts: 289
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Post by gc on May 30, 2021 18:40:48 GMT
Where does this one fit in. Looks like a W8 of Wharema If you look at vol.3 of the RPSNZ books you will see under page 59 for Wellington that the W number series ran from W 1 to W 15. For W 8 it says (see Napier District). So we go to the Napier section on page 54 where it says : "Although Waipawa and Waipukurau were in the Hawkes Bay Postal District, they used Wellington District Cancellations for a period. The Wellington District type date-stamp with W 8 was used at Waipawa. The obliterator supplied to this office was no.7 (the oblit. with horiz. bars and number 3 that Philip showed us just before) and it was identical in type with the obliterator employed at Wairau Valley in the Blenheim District. The Waipawa obliterator was in commission at an early date. Mr C.F Bulley of Melbourne has two covers on which the postage stamps were cancelled with no.7 and on which there are also impressions of the Waipawa date-stamp of March 31 and July 7, 1864. Because Waipawa had a distinctive date-stamp in 1864, the Wellington type with W 8 was probably used as a 'relief'." Dave Hi Dave Do you have Volume 7, page 183 ? Could my W8 be in fact Wharema ( part of the Wellington series ) Cheers Grant |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 30, 2021 20:44:11 GMT
Hi Dave Do you have Volume 7, page 183 ? Could my W8 be in fact Wharema ( part of the Wellington series ) Morning Grant Yes, I do in fact possess vol.7, and yes, vol.7 does correct vol.3's assertion that W 8 was ascribed to Waipawa as a 'relief' canceller. Vol.7 in part states : "Date-stamps with a capital letter followed by a number have been the source of considerable confusion in the past. In the 'Postage Stamps of New Zealand Vol.III they were incorrectly treated as relief date-stamps provided for temporary replacement of regular date-stamps when these had to be sent to a workshop for modification or repair. Evidence from stamps and covers indicates that they were much more important than just relief date-stamps. They were, in fact, the first date-stamps provided for use at "local offices" or sub-offices within the Provinces of Canterbury and Nelson in 1862 and Wellington and Southland in 1863......." I will scan in the relevant pages later (after work today) but suffice to say that vol.7 does go on to state that W 8 was in fact used at Whareama. Moral of the story here is to use the very latest, most up to date, information as possible when reading old books for facts :-) Dave |
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gc
Member
Posts: 289
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Post by gc on May 31, 2021 5:27:41 GMT
Picture 'stolen' from the internet to show the outer 5 lines of the sheet wmk. The first line of the 5 is down the line of perforations. No 'POSTAGE' letters seen here but clearly shows the edge of the sheet and the wmk around it.  Dave Here is one of my favourite items showing the lines watermark, and how they intersect at the corner.  
Cheers Grant |
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Post by tundrawolf on May 31, 2021 8:05:58 GMT
Nice piece Grant, perforated with the regular comb so an early printing. Interesting to see the big step in the last strike of the comb, I wonder why.
Philip
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Post by tundrawolf on May 31, 2021 8:08:10 GMT
A little quiz for everyone, where was this pair cancelled?  Philip |
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gc
Member
Posts: 289
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Post by gc on May 31, 2021 8:18:56 GMT
A little quiz for everyone, where was this pair cancelled? Philip I'll start off with Turakina ( Wellington ) Cheers Grant |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 31, 2021 9:27:26 GMT
I agree with Grant.
Turakina.
Not Nelson as you may think 👌
Dave
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Post by tundrawolf on May 31, 2021 23:48:45 GMT
You're both too quick but not surprising. What's interesting about this cancel is that it is shown in the handbooks with the base of the 1 extending both sides of the vertical line but I have never seen one. The example shown is my only example on a chalon and I have examples one FSF and SSF, all with the base of the one extending forward only. Can anyone show an example with a complete base to the 1?
Philip
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gc
Member
Posts: 289
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Post by gc on Jun 1, 2021 5:56:11 GMT
You're both too quick but not surprising. What's interesting about this cancel is that it is shown in the handbooks with the base of the 1 extending both sides of the vertical line but I have never seen one. The example shown is my only example on a chalon and I have examples one FSF and SSF, all with the base of the one extending forward only. Can anyone show an example with a complete base to the 1? Philip Hi Phillip This cover isn't going to help the discussion re "15" from Turakina sorry But it is interesting to see such a bold "15" from Nelson. And no it is not my cover, I have borrowed the image from an old auction. Regards Grant  |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jun 1, 2021 7:21:53 GMT
You're both too quick but not surprising. What's interesting about this cancel is that it is shown in the handbooks with the base of the 1 extending both sides of the vertical line but I have never seen one. The example shown is my only example on a chalon and I have examples one FSF and SSF, all with the base of the one extending forward only. Can anyone show an example with a complete base to the 1? I presume from this Philip, that you are saying either : a) this is Turakina but the figure '1' in the 15 is not as per the illustrations in the RPSNZ volumes or b) This is NOT Turakina because it is a different '1' in the 15 to that shown in the books ! ? At this stage I believe that this is Turakina and the '1' has either been damaged very early on in its use or 'they' got the picture wrong. I have not read anywhere previously that there is yet another barred obliterator, similar to the PB ones, with the number 15 in it. Have you? :-) I have found a few PB'15's pictured below and also one 'Turakina' 15 but on a much later SSF 6d from the 1880's. It is the same '15' as per your ones on the 2d blue Chalon pair above. No full base to the '1' and no serif to the top either. From the RPSNZ vol.7 pages
 SG8, SG10 and SG40
SG122, SG110 and a p12½ Second Sideface 6d (Turakina '15') Dave |
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Post by tundrawolf on Jun 1, 2021 7:37:23 GMT
Nice cover Grant, someone must have cleaned that obliterator just before use for it to look that good after 10 or 11 years of use in an important office like Nelson.
Dave I believe my example is indeed Turakina and the person illustrating it in the handbooks has made some assumptions. I could of cause be wrong and it could originally have had a complete foot to the 1, and as you pointed out, no serif. Maybe someone can show us an earlier example. Worth looking out for.
Philip
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Post by tundrawolf on Jun 1, 2021 7:48:07 GMT
OK the last one was to easy, how about this one?  Philip |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jun 1, 2021 8:12:16 GMT
Not one I have seen on an NZ stamp before Philip, but, the WC in a barred obliterator reminds me of the English London District cancels - WC representing West Central London as per this item below.  But, I cannot see why this item would have been sent to the UK. 1d was an unusual value as the 6d value would have sufficed - unless it was used as a 'make up' value for one of the foreign routes or similar ! I shall keep looking .... :-) Dave |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jun 1, 2021 8:28:22 GMT
***Light bulb moment***
Of course 1d was the Soldiers rate to the UK - when did this rate finish though?
Another thought is that the 'WC' is actually a 'WG' - perhaps - for Wanganui (Whanganui).
Dave
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Post by tundrawolf on Jun 1, 2021 18:40:43 GMT
Some good thoughts there Dave. Another possibility if it is an English cancel would be a newspaper which might account for the poor strike. A faint cancel can be seen so cancelled on arrival is certainly possible.
A bit unfair this one as to be perfectly honest I have no idea.
Philip
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jun 1, 2021 20:45:19 GMT
I like the idea of it having been used on a newspaper Philip, then cancelled upon arrival in England. I need to study English postmark databases further.
I note from the image you supplied above that the WC does actually have a stop between the W and C ie W.C as per the cancel on the 1d red above.
Dave
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Jun 2, 2021 0:57:36 GMT
Some good thoughts there Dave. Another possibility if it is an English cancel would be a newspaper which might account for the poor strike. A faint cancel can be seen so cancelled on arrival is certainly possible. A bit unfair this one as to be perfectly honest I have no idea. Philip Some what related. A SG99 with a 1) London (WC?), 2) province ...., and 3) a manuscript cancel. London looks like September 06 1865.   |
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Jun 2, 2021 1:00:19 GMT
Gentleman Here is a question for today. Correct if I am wrong, but why do 99% of roulette 7 Chalons have the tuffs of paper on them. Where are all the ones that must have been left with a recess, when they were pulled apart ? There's a thought for the day Cheers Grant Here is my 6d with slots and protrusions. My guess is it is SG 55. No certificate.   |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jun 2, 2021 1:08:21 GMT
Nice ones Mark.
That SG99, NZ wmk, is interesting.
The imperf 6d with NZ wmk is not common on its own, but yours also has a Province of Auckland cancel, a manuscript and a London postmark too. It is a pity that it has been cut into on the LHS.
Can you make out the manuscript at all?
I am on my cellphone so cannot see it all that clearly.
Dave
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Jun 2, 2021 3:22:43 GMT
Attached are a couple of 6d I think are pelure (SG 85). They are both black-brown with no watermark. However, the one on the left is stiff paper and the one on the right is soft. Has anyone else noted two types of pelure paper? Or do I need to soak it to remove gum or something else? The one on the right has rough edges. Could this be a serration of some kind or was the stamp just torn from the sheet? I picked up the one on the left for $5 (it does have a thin on the left edge of the Front). (note they look brown on my screen, but definitely black brown as in SG41 and not like any of the Richardsons, perhaps my scanner needs a color adjustment)  |
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Jun 2, 2021 3:33:24 GMT
Nice ones Mark. That SG99, NZ wmk, is interesting. The imperf 6d with NZ wmk is not common on its own, but yours also has a Province of Auckland cancel, a manuscript and a London postmark too. It is a pity that it has been cut into on the LHS. Can you make out the manuscript at all? I am on my cellphone so cannot see it all that clearly. Dave It is hard for me to see what it is. I probably need to compare it with know manuscript cancelations. |
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