DK
Member 
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jun 2, 2021 8:25:14 GMT
Some what related. A SG99 with a 1) London (WC?), 2) province ...., and 3) a manuscript cancel. London looks like September 06 1865. An 1865 date puts it squarely in the period of British Military use (mid 1860's). Unfortunately we cannot see the number of the office, and therefore will never know for sure where it was sent from (from that P-o-A postmark). Suffice to say it will be in the Waikato area. We will need to work on that Manuscript to figure that out! A reminder of the places the P-o-A postmarks were used during 1864-67 Certainly used at:Number 1 - Ngaruawahia Number 2 - Te Awamutu Number 4 - Hamilton Believed used at:Number 3 - Alexandra (Pirongia) Number 5 - Cambridge Number 6 - Whatawhata Number 7 - Ngahinapouri Dave |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jun 2, 2021 8:36:42 GMT
Attached are a couple of 6d I think are pelure (SG 85). They are both black-brown with no watermark. However, the one on the left is stiff paper and the one on the right is soft. Has anyone else noted two types of pelure paper? Or do I need to soak it to remove gum or something else? The one on the right has rough edges. Could this be a serration of some kind or was the stamp just torn from the sheet? I picked up the one on the left for $5 (it does have a thin on the left edge of the Front). (note they look brown on my screen, but definitely black brown as in SG41 and not like any of the Richardsons, perhaps my scanner needs a color adjustment) The left hand one definitely looks to be 'Pelure' paper. The right hand one is probably so also, but the paper is the important thing here. How thick is it? The 'Richardson' prints on soft paper, no wmk were usually thick. It does look from the pic supplied to be similar to that but the color of the stamp matches SG41/85 - black-brown Davies. Are you sure there is no wmk? I cannot see one but perhaps 'retro reveal' can assist you. As to the rough separation, sometimes the postal clerk did separate them partially by tearing them along a ruler - remembering that quite often the stamps were already partially separated by scissors or knife to speed up the process when a customer came in. Paper dolls is the analogy :-) Dave |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jun 2, 2021 8:43:43 GMT
Not one I have seen on an NZ stamp before Philip, but, the WC in a barred obliterator reminds me of the English London District cancels - WC representing West Central London as per this item below. I have convinced myself that your W.C obliterator cancel - on the 1d brown Chalon - is a London Duplex cancel for Western Central - London - or W.C and probably a number under that for the actual office. Here is another similar cancel :   If your 1d brown was on a thick newspaper that would account for the 'soft' impression of the duplex. Still looking for more info on this ... Dave |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jun 2, 2021 9:02:22 GMT
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jun 2, 2021 9:10:05 GMT
And the only example I have found so far of a Chalon tied to a newspaper sent to the UK :  Schuyler Rumsey lot 284Sold for US$2100 plus commissions etc Dave |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jun 2, 2021 9:16:08 GMT
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Jun 2, 2021 16:25:34 GMT
Attached are a couple of 6d I think are pelure (SG 85). They are both black-brown with no watermark. However, the one on the left is stiff paper and the one on the right is soft. Has anyone else noted two types of pelure paper? Or do I need to soak it to remove gum or something else? The one on the right has rough edges. Could this be a serration of some kind or was the stamp just torn from the sheet? I picked up the one on the left for $5 (it does have a thin on the left edge of the Front). (note they look brown on my screen, but definitely black brown as in SG41 and not like any of the Richardsons, perhaps my scanner needs a color adjustment) The left hand one definitely looks to be 'Pelure' paper. The right hand one is probably so also, but the paper is the important thing here. How thick is it? The 'Richardson' prints on soft paper, no wmk were usually thick. It does look from the pic supplied to be similar to that but the color of the stamp matches SG41/85 - black-brown Davies. Are you sure there is no wmk? I cannot see one but perhaps 'retro reveal' can assist you. As to the rough separation, sometimes the postal clerk did separate them partially by tearing them along a ruler - remembering that quite often the stamps were already partially separated by scissors or knife to speed up the process when a customer came in. Paper dolls is the analogy :-) Dave They are both fairly thin paper, but the right hand one with softer paper appears slightly thinner. I did retro reveal and could not see any indication of a star on either of them. I think I need to soak the stiff paper one and see what happens. |
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gc
Member
Posts: 289
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Post by gc on Jun 2, 2021 17:51:49 GMT
From the GBPS website check this out for dates and types of Duplex's and obliterators for W.C : London Postal History Group Publications Dave I must say Dave that is Superb research, very well done. Cheers Grant |
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Post by tundrawolf on Jun 2, 2021 19:14:24 GMT
I agree with Grant, superb research Dave. The poor impression makes it impossible to say which London WC it is but at a guess I'd say the first one fits reasonably well, right date range, short W and wide C, and not a duplex.
Thanks Dave.
Philip
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jun 2, 2021 20:54:52 GMT
I agree with Grant, superb research Dave. The poor impression makes it impossible to say which London WC it is but at a guess I'd say the first one fits reasonably well, right date range, short W and wide C, and not a duplex. Thanks Dave. Philip Thanks Team :-) It was enjoyable to follow the leads and to eventually find an answer. And yes, an obliterator - Not a duplex :-) Dave |
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Post by tundrawolf on Jun 4, 2021 7:36:35 GMT
While you're on a roll Dave would you like to try another challenge:  This one looks homemade so I've wondered whether it's a Christchurch district obliterator made by a postmaster. Any thoughts? Philip |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jun 4, 2021 8:38:16 GMT
Interesting one Philip.
I have been thru’ vol.3 and 7 and cannot see anything about this one.
If it was locally made you’d think it would be known about unless it is a forgery.
6d being the standard rate to the UK for a half ounce letter so tomorrow I will check out the UK postmarks of that time.
It may be an Australian State obliterator so may check there too.
Dave
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Jun 4, 2021 17:23:49 GMT
While you're on a roll Dave would you like to try another challenge: This one looks homemade so I've wondered whether it's a Christchurch district obliterator made by a postmaster. Any thoughts? Philip Compared to the original for reference  |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jun 4, 2021 23:03:33 GMT
Whilst I am researching Philips 6d with the 12 barred numeral '15' (not going very well on that admittedly!) I shall give the rest of you one to research. I believe I know the answer already and it should not be too difficult (unlike Philip's !!) :  Dave |
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Post by tundrawolf on Jun 6, 2021 3:57:52 GMT
Very impressive Grant, a wonderful addition to your exhibit. I hope one day I'll get to see your exhibit in the flesh. Here's another example of the obliterator posted by Dave.  This is a difficult one, where it was used is dependant on the date of use, which we don't have on stamps off cover, and there's a long period of use, July 1868 to November 1873, where a location of use is not known with any certainty. Philip |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jun 6, 2021 4:18:58 GMT
Here are the two side by side :  I had this one down as Edendale. But is it? Philip, do you think that our two above are the same? There are some subtle differences! Dave |
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Post by tundrawolf on Jun 6, 2021 8:15:25 GMT
Edendale post office opened 1/11/1873 so it might be possible that the 3d was cancelled in Edendale but not the 1d. I think the subtle differences are due to a heavier strike and/or more heavily inked obliterator and they are the same cancel. A post office called Mataura Plains was open at the same location from January to July 1868. This information comes from volume 7 of the handbooks in which they suggest the cancel may have been used at a main collection or sorting office in the intervening period. I have no idea whether this information has been updated since the publication of volume 7.
Very nice example Dave.
Philip
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Jun 6, 2021 19:34:32 GMT
Hi Mark I think we should be carefull when comparing the paper types, in particular this die proof. Robert Odenweller has the die proof engraving happening on ( or about ) the 3rd March 1854 ( according to Perkins Bacon & Co records ). I think you will find it is on "India Paper", but is then affixed to a card. At this stage I cannot find any records to say when the die proof was affixed to the card. Further research needed here. Regards Grant Grant, Is your die proof one that is printed on Indian paper and then stuck on card? So the picture you posted of the back of the die proof is of the card? Thanks, Mark |
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Jun 6, 2021 19:39:28 GMT
2d London Proof Pair Back  , Sorry do not have a scan of the 2d Pair on hand. Hope this helps. Andrew To complete the paper types, above I have reposted Andrew's Plate Proof |
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gc
Member
Posts: 289
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Post by gc on Jun 6, 2021 22:12:34 GMT
Grant, Is your die proof one that is printed on Indian paper and then stuck on card? So the picture you posted of the back of the die proof is of the card? Thanks, Mark Hi Mark Yes it is. Regards Grant |
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Jun 8, 2021 14:02:13 GMT
I am find the hunting for various cancellations quite refreshing, they are a minefield and I am sure I have a lot of learning to do with regard to cancellations. Here's a sample of the barred types and trying to categorise them is a headache. The six stamps have I believe 5 very different cancellations. "Stamp.5" shows characteristic's of the unallocated No.22 page 85 of Vol.I bar size and spacing without the surrounding line, mine has one more bar as well.  The green lines are just guidelines to try and get the stamp images the same size for comparison with each other.  Anyone got any similar cancellations or more knowledge on the allocations? I found another cancelation. Quite a nice one on a certified SG38 2d. Looks like 6 bars. Could it be number 3 above? The space does not look wide enough. Or 5, but it does not have the surrounding thin line and has 6 instead of 5 bars (like Andrew's). Some of the features are very similar to Andrew's, so I suggest it is the same cancel. Did anyone find out what it is. 
 |
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Jun 8, 2021 20:49:19 GMT
Some more possibilities. Not sure where I got this, but it could have been from Gerald Elliot's site, but his articles are no longer accessible. It does not look like the images, but it could be the 6 bar of Ohinetahi mentioned in the text, which the date works (before 1867) with SG38 (1862-1864). Does anyone have a image of this cancel (or is it No. 1 in Andrew's with another set of bars in the middle)?   |
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gc
Member
Posts: 289
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Post by gc on Jun 9, 2021 6:31:12 GMT
Hi Mark My guess is your No 1 ( the 3d ) is Ohinitahi Here is a cover ( which I admit is not mine ) showing front and back. Also copy of the Ohinitahi Cancel on a 2d blue ( which is mine ). Note that Ohinitahi ( Governor's Bay ) actually had two cancels like this. One with "square" sides and one with "curved" sides. Cheers Grant    |
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Jun 9, 2021 15:36:04 GMT
So, Andrew and my obliterator is still unknown.
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Jun 10, 2021 15:17:36 GMT
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Jun 10, 2021 17:18:12 GMT
Here are my Davies large star prints. Odenweller's sorting guide has a different set of colors and plate wear compared to SG. I tried to categorize them by color and plate wear, but the color is very hard to identify. Any suggestions? Should my blue worn plate be slate blue?  |
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murfz1
Member
Posts: 51
What I collect: New Zealand Chalons and Associated Material
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Post by murfz1 on Jun 11, 2021 0:07:35 GMT
Skid
Is the last one SG.37 Slate Blue in your images a roulette 7?
Regards Andrew
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Jun 11, 2021 1:02:44 GMT
Skid Is the last one SG.37 Slate Blue in your images a roulette 7? Regards Andrew Here is the full resolution image. The glue that was used for a repair looks like roulettes, unfortunately. I gave it a soak, but it is still being flattened and I have not looked at the results.    |
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Jun 11, 2021 1:24:32 GMT
The Odenweller sorting guide has these colors (follows CP)
No plate wear (all SG36):
dull deep blue [CP Ad2d(1)]
deep blue [CP A2d(2)]
blue [CP A2d(3)]
bright blue [CP A2d(4)]
Early plate wear:
Ultramarine (bright or dull) [SG37, CP A2d(5)]
Slate blue [SG37, CP A2d(6)]
Greenish slate blue [SG 37a, CP A2d(7)]
Pale or milky blue [SG37a, CP A2d(8)]
Blue [SG38, CP A2d(8)]
Intermediate wear
Pale greenish blue [SG38, CP A2d(10)]
Greenish blue [SG38, CP A2d(11)]
Dull deep blue [SG38, CP A2d(12)]
Deep blue [no SG given, CP A2d(13)]
Advanced wear
Dull blue [SG39, CP A2d(14)]
Blue [SG39, CP A2d(15)]
Pale blue [no SG given, CP A2d(16)]
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Jun 11, 2021 17:45:26 GMT
Here is the possible roulette after a soak. Looks like a roulette, but is the margin with the roulettes added? Is it rebacked? Note the blue in the top right corner, could that be used for plating? Would hydrogen peroxide get rid of the brown toning?    |
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