DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jul 12, 2020 21:51:08 GMT
And to highlight the point CP makes in that piece (above) here is a 6d on a thinner, softer white paper with Horizontal Mesh (HM) : Thinner, soft (HM) white paper - would fit into type (A) group Dave
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Post by jimbabwe on Jul 13, 2020 1:54:59 GMT
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DK
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Posts: 1,248
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jul 13, 2020 7:13:48 GMT
The next sequence of SG numbers are of those of the ' Experimental Separation' period of 1858 - 1862/3. These ones are all Richardson printings. Various methods of separation tried with hand-held wheels and a perf.13 machine SG18 - 21Pin roulette, about 10, at Nelson (1860)
SG22 - 26Serrated perf., about 16 or 18, at Nelson (1862) SG27 - 31Roulette 7, at Auckland (Apr.1859)
SG31a - 32Perf. 13, at Dunedin (1863) SG32a - SG32b'H' Roulette 16, at Nelson SG32c - SG32g'Y' Roulette 18, at Nelson SG32hOblique Roulette 13, at Wellington Dave
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on Jul 13, 2020 15:59:11 GMT
Thank you DK and jimbabwe - this is so helpful! Looking forward to revisit my Chalons with a better understanding. Please keep this thread going, excellent info
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jul 14, 2020 8:49:29 GMT
In February of 1862 J. Richardson's contract was terminated by the Government. They had taken on a new man, John Davies, as the Government Printer, based in Auckland. He was to continue printing the Chalons for the rest of the Chalon period. In 1865 the capitol of New Zealand was moved to Wellington. In 1867 John Davies and the Government Printing dept. also moved to Wellington where the printing was to remain. Davies had to use the provided 'Large Star' paper. There were some periods during 1862/3-64 & 1872-73 where other papers were used. 1862 (Feb.) - 64Printed by John Davies at the GPO Auckland wmk large star (a) Imperf. SG 33 - 46Below are images of this Imperf. group (some shades included): SG33 - SG46
These images are representative of the values produced. Note: a new value in the 3d, being added in 1863. Dave
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Post by jimbabwe on Jul 14, 2020 23:47:25 GMT
There is also a rarther interesting blue green shade sometimes found on the 1/- imperfs due to a chemical reaction that is believed to have taken place when mail stored in a copper box was submerged in sea water for an extended period... I'll post with my other "normal" shades so you can see the difference.
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Post by jimbabwe on Jul 15, 2020 4:28:30 GMT
and here are some more 6d Richardson's showing the four basic shades (they are more obvious in natural light). The third stamp is one of my favourites, I found it in a rather ugly state with oxidation but it cleaned up rather nicely.
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DK
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Posts: 1,248
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jul 15, 2020 7:17:09 GMT
Nice items there Jim. That 'Colombo green' shade is very nice !
Dave
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DK
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Post by DK on Jul 15, 2020 7:29:11 GMT
Roulette 7 at Auckland Davies prints on 'Large Star' paper rouletted with a roulette 7 handwheel. May 1862 (b) Roulette 7 at Auckland May 1862 Experimental roulettes with hand held wheel SG 47 - 58Some examples below with shades (no SG48a 1d Carmine-vermillion unfortunately sorry) Note: Not all SG numbers shown - above are representative of the group Dave
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Post by jimbabwe on Jul 15, 2020 21:53:00 GMT
I think the top left stamp is carmine vermillion. Love that pair, Dave - haven't come across one of those before. The 2d in particular comes in many shades. I do quite like the ultramarine shade...
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Post by jimbabwe on Jul 15, 2020 22:48:23 GMT
and while on the subject of roulettes, here's an example on the Richardson printing. No cert, but I believe it to be genuine.
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DK
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Post by DK on Jul 17, 2020 21:52:05 GMT
The next group are the other separation types:
Davies prints on 'Large Star' paper.
(c) Serrated perf. 16 or 18, at Nelson (July 1862) SG 59 - 65
(d) Pin-perf 10, at Nelson (August 1862) SG 66 - 67
(e) "H" roulette 16, at Nelson SG 67a - 67c
(f) "Y" roulette 18, at Nelson (June 1862) SG 67d - 67j
(g) Oblique roulette 13, at Wellington SG 67k - 67n
(h) Square roulette 14, at Auckland SG 67o - 67r
(i) Serrated perf. 13, at Dunedin SG 67s - 67w
Dave
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DK
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Post by DK on Jul 17, 2020 22:00:56 GMT
Some examples of the other experimental separation types : (from the Du Bois Sale) SG60 - Serrated perf. 16 or 18 SG63 - Serrated perf. 16 or 18 SG67s - Serrated perf. 13 Dave
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DK
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Post by DK on Jul 17, 2020 22:06:27 GMT
SG 67e - "Y" roulette 18 Dave
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DK
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Post by DK on Jul 17, 2020 22:27:10 GMT
Apologies to 'gc' here - but I have just found this image that he had posted elsewhere - and I love it! Group of 1d Davies shades: Dave
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gc
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Post by gc on Jul 18, 2020 0:59:54 GMT
Hi Dave
Yes I agree they do look good, and look even better in person.
Just to confirm the first stamp top row is a genuine SG1 London Print on star watermarked paper, the rest of the top row are Davies Prints on star watermarked paper, starting with Bright Orange-vermilion, Orange- vermilion, Vermilion and Carmine-vermilion ( a very deep shade )
The first three stamps on the bottom row are also Davies Prints on star watermarked paper, Carmine-vermilion, Carmine-vermilion, and what I believe is the rare Carmine shade. The last two are also Davies Prints but on "NZ" watermarked paper. The first is a mint copy of Carmine-vermilion and the last is a beautiful used copy of Carmine-vermilion.
Its taken 20 years to get that group together.
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DK
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Post by DK on Jul 18, 2020 1:19:54 GMT
Thanks for that clarification Grant. I looked hard at that SG1 and erred on the side of caution (I thought that it may have been in the SG35 group of shades!). Lovely, lovely item for sure.
And thanks for listing the shades for us. Always difficult to judge from the scan/monitors used.
Dave
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jul 18, 2020 22:10:52 GMT
Next group: Perf.13 at Dunedin Quote from the CP Catalogue "The use of a perforating machine was the personal decision of the Dunedin Postmaster. Following the discovery of gold in Otago, the usage of stamps there was much increased. As an illustration the 'Postage Stamps of New Zealand' quotes the figures of letters posted in 1863. Dunedin 1,354,000 Auckland 607,000 The machine was extensively used mainly (but not only) on Davies prints, including even the Richardson 'white paper' prints. Some of these are exceedingly rare. The Postmaster was naturally quite indifferent as to the particular type of stamps he was having perforated - his only interest being to expedite the separation of the stamps. Due to the contractor's reputed method of perforating several sheets at one time, copies perforated 13, and well centered, are of considerable scarcity and may warrant premium prices". 1862. Printed by John Davies at the GPO Auckland wmk. Large Star P13 ( at Dunedin ) SG 68 - 80SG notes: that it can sometimes be difficult to distinguish these from the later p12½ issues. These items gauge a full 13 on all sides. ** The p12½ issues can measure 12¾ and sometimes a full 13 vertically. However, stamps of this issue invariably gauge 12½ horizontally whereas the p13 measure a full 13. **
Dave Tip: Any 'genuine' perforated Chalon dated prior to June 1864 must be p13 (see the 2d blue CDS above). The Government started perforating the stamps themselves at that point. p13 issues commonly have a Dunedin postmark, or one of the Otago postal districts (but not always).
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DK
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Post by DK on Jul 18, 2020 22:43:02 GMT
Interesting point : Both of the catalogues used here, SG & CP, mention just one shade for the 3d Brown-lilac p13. However, the imperf. Davies is listed in CP as both Brown-lilac and Deep brown-lilac whereas SG notes only Brown-lilac (SG40). Here below are the two shades in p13 The 1st one is the standard Brown-lilac shade and the 2nd one is deep Brown-lilac. Note also the different size widths of the two items. Any thoughts team? Dave
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DK
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Post by DK on Jul 18, 2020 22:52:33 GMT
I believe that the 1862-64 p13 issue of the 3d (SG74) is in Scott as Sc.18 Scott lists this set as Sc.16 - 20 (I seem to have just a 'simplified' scanned copy of Scotts NZ pages).
Does anyone here possess a chart that lists a comparison between SG v CP v Scott specialised?
Dave
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renden
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Post by renden on Jul 18, 2020 22:58:04 GMT
Very specialized thread as I do not have any of those classics .....keep it going (but I will not buy any......... ) René
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gc
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Post by gc on Jul 18, 2020 23:19:31 GMT
Interesting point : Both of the catalogues used here, SG & CP, mention just one shade for the 3d Brown-lilac p13. However, the imperf. Davies is listed in CP as both Brown-lilac and Deep brown-lilac whereas SG notes only Brown-lilac (SG40). Here below are the two shades in p13 The 1st one is the standard Brown-lilac shade and the 2nd one is deep Brown-lilac. Note also the different size widths of the two items. Any thoughts team? Dave Hi Dave Hard to say, my gut feeling is the right hand copy has forged perfs on right hand and bottom. Cheers Grant
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DK
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Post by DK on Jul 18, 2020 23:24:31 GMT
Hi Grant
Yes. That was my reasoning for asking for others thoughts on this. Apart from being quite narrow, the perfs do look a little odd. On the SG Instanta they appear to measure pretty well but just look a little odd. So I would probably be of the same opinion.
That being said, have you seen the p13 3d in a 'true' deep brown-lilac as per above?
Dave
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gc
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Post by gc on Jul 19, 2020 0:16:57 GMT
Hi Dave I must say I have not see the "Deep Brown Lilac" shade in perf 13. I must say your "Brown-lilac" shade looks really "Lilac". But different computers and scanners can alter shading significantly. Here are my two singles and on cover. Cheers Grant
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DK
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Post by DK on Jul 19, 2020 0:38:40 GMT
Your ones definately look quite 'dark' compared to mine. Almost 'slatey' brown lilac. Apart from the probable re-perf 3d above, I have these three items. I have just gone over them again with the Instanta and all gauge 13. Even the one you say looks lilac (its the end one on the right here) : Dave
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gc
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Post by gc on Jul 19, 2020 4:11:00 GMT
Hi Dave
Yes your right hand copy is a ripper, apart from a couple of 1d perf 13 stamps floating around this would be the largest perf 13 stamp I have seen.
Crisp clean perfs, very rarely seen on perf 13 stamps.
Cheers Grant
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Post by jimbabwe on Jul 20, 2020 22:58:37 GMT
Hi guys, very nice stamps. the 3d perf 13 is a difficult stamp to find in good condition. I rechecked mine and they also seem to be slightly different shades. Not as wide a range as the perf 12.5 stamps of course, shown underneath...
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gc
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Post by gc on Jul 23, 2020 7:14:14 GMT
Hi Guys Looking at old auction catalogues etc, there doesn't seem to be many instances of the "deep brown lilac" shade, either imperf or perf 13 Here are some images ( none of which are mine). First image is Brown Lilac with Odenweller Cert Second image is also Brown Lilac with Odenweller Cert Third image is Deep Brown Lilac with Odenweller Cert Fourth image is also Deep Brown Lilac with Odenweller Vert Fifth is Brown Lilac Sixth is Brown Lilac with RPSNZ Cert Last is also Brown Lilac with Odenweller Cert As you can see, many different shades attributed to each grouping. I myself would have put the last image as "deep brown lilac". However these images were taken from an old auction site, so the colours may have altered during scanning.
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stanley64
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Post by stanley64 on Jul 23, 2020 10:50:19 GMT
I had shared this auction catalogue in an earlier posting and given its contains, from its own description, a 3d Chalon of "brown-lilac in an outstanding deep rich shade", I thought of sharing it again,
Happy collecting!
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gc
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Post by gc on Jul 24, 2020 7:17:27 GMT
Hi stanley64 Yes beautiful copy thank you. Would look great in my collection
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