gc
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Posts: 289
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Post by gc on Sept 19, 2021 1:37:24 GMT
Hi Dave an Peter Yes initially I was thinking pelure paper ( but not now with star watermark ) The question maybe the shade ( but again different scanners show different colours ) Below are my SG41/42 group. Starting at the left: Black-brown Grey-black Brown Brown Possibly Peters is falling closer to Brown than Black-brown ( as previously started scanners can be misleading, mine included ) Cheers Grant
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brightonpete
Departed
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On a hike at Goodrich-Loomis
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Post by brightonpete on Sept 19, 2021 4:38:25 GMT
The 2d blue is 12.5, and I couldn't see much with the wmk fluid, but I didn't detect NZ.
As far as I can tell with your 6d brown's gc , mine looks closest to the last pair.
Peter
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gc
Member
Posts: 289
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Post by gc on Sept 19, 2021 4:51:54 GMT
Hi Peter
If that is the shade then yours is a Brown SG42, CP ( Campbell Paterson ) A5b ( 3 )
Regards Grant
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Post by tundrawolf on Sept 19, 2021 8:03:42 GMT
What an impressive group Grant and I'm picking that W8 Whareama cancel on the last pair is uncommon.
Philip
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stanley64
Member
Posts: 1,986
What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
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Post by stanley64 on Sept 23, 2021 7:46:55 GMT
...nice to have examples of these Classic stamps!
This is one of those series that a collector could focus on and spend a life time studying in the absence of anything else. I think collectors such as DK and others in the thread have done just that. The alternative and just as rewarding I am sure, is a 'taster's' sampling as you have shown.
At the end of the day, those Chalons are little beauties and however many you may have, enjoy...
Happy collecting!
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Sept 23, 2021 8:36:51 GMT
Very nice words stanley64 :-) You are quite correct in saying that it gives great pleasure in having a collection of Chalons to study. Many hours are spent researching these beauties and the many paths and avenues it takes you down. Although I have some money to spend on them, I am sure there are others here who spend a lot more then I do. But as you say, whether you have thousands, or just a few, there is always pride in looking at and admiring the classics. Not only do collectors of Chalons collect these lovely items, but we also appreciate the classic issues of all countries. Dave
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Sept 25, 2021 22:14:19 GMT
Here is a 'local' Chalon cover I have had for some time. I hadn't really looked too much at it over the years, closely that is, until today. It is a small part envelope (one back flap missing) which is addressed to William Swanson Esq. The stamp is SG130a p10x12.5 retouched - possibly r18/1 The address is 'West Queen St, Auckland' - Back stamped Auckland CDS of DE 5 72The obliterator is a well worn one of what appears to be the 'Headquarters' NZ Wars cancel with the word 'Headquarters' excised. Vol.7 of the RPSNZ books page 281 states :"About 1866 the word 'Headquarters' was excised from the obliterator which was then used at Tauranga to cancel adhesive stamps until about 1872.The earliest recorded cover is of 11 February 1867 and the latest, 26 June 1872". So, this cover was sent from Tauranga to Auckland in early December 1872. Does this now become the latest cover known bearing this obliterator?! Other facts about this cover : West Queen St later became "Swanson" St ! A suburb in West Auckland was named after him - Swanson William Swanson was a notable Merchant & Politician of his day : William Swanson EsqWilliam Swanson Esq 2
‘Honest Willie Swanson’ tried his hand at many things and perhaps his proudest achievement, although now largely forgotten, was his contribution to writing the revolutionary Education Act of 1877. In the name of that far-sighted Act of Parliament, New Zealand led the world with education that was “free, secular and compulsory”. It even paved the way for women and Maori to seek education.
This was not a happy accidental outcome. Swanson believed in education and opportunities for everyone regardless of “class”. He was also a pioneering multi-culturalist and believer in opportunities for women. He was married three times (de facto on two occasions and always to Maori women). First to Mere Ngaoko and they had two sons who were foundation pupils at St Stephen’s School for Maori boys. After Mere died, he developed a de facto relationship with Timata Titoki and together they had son who was an early pupil at Auckland Grammar.
Finally, he married Ani Rangitunoa, high-born of the Ngāti Te Whatuiāpiti of Hawke’s Bay and they had five children, two boys and three girls. According to the Encyclopaedia of New Zealand “His daughters are finished musicians, their indulgent father having provided his children with every opportunity of culture, besides attending to their material well being. ”
Like those other two pioneering giants of early Auckland, Henderson and Sir John Logan Campbell, Swanson was a Scot who tried his hand in various industries including politics, making himself rich several times over. Yet above all, during his life, he seems to have had an enduring reputation for honesty, generosity and for his charity.
He must have been a formidable personality. He was born at Leith just outside Edinburgh on 30 May 1819, and was soon orphaned and brought up by his grandfather and then by an uncle. As a youth he had little education and no family fortune but he was apprenticed as a shipwright, a useful trade for a man who would try his luck in the colonies by the time he was 25.
He moved first to Cork in Ireland and then joined a band of emigrants travelling first to Sydney before arriving in the fledgling settlement of Auckland in 1844 and sought employment in his trade. At first he worked at boat building on Great Barrier and then later he collected sea shells to make lime for the building of the Albert Barrack Wall.
Finally he went into the cabinet making business. However, low wages drove him to seek his fortune on the California gold fields and brought his enterprising, not to mention courageous, and independent character to the fore.
He built a tiny sailing boat of a mere 14 tonnes in which to sail to America. This plan was immediately thwarted by an Auckland customs officer who refused to clear the vessel to sail because he believed it was far too small to cross the wide Pacific. Undaunted Swanson sneaked away to the Bay of Islands where, he “found an officer more ignorant or less strict as to the tonnage of his little craft.”
This encyclopedia entry, written while Swanson was still alive, went on in a humorous vein that “his mates, though possessing a theoretical knowledge of seamanship, were divided in opinion on some of the more abstruse points of navigation.”
The guardians of our coasts today would have nightmares at the thought of such a tiny boat setting off across the vast Pacific with no-one on board who had the slightest idea of navigation. As it was a Mr Bell, who did know his way around a chart and a sextant, joined the vessel which duly made it to Tahiti and then Honolulu.
Selling the boat in Hawaii, Swanson went on to the goldfield and made a fortune. It seems from the information now available, he was one of the smart ones who made a lot of money providing for the needs of the miners rather than actually chasing the elusive “colour” himself.
In any event Swanson landed back in West Auckland in 1852 with money in his pocket he went straight into the timber trade based in the area that now bears his name. He lived at the end of what is now Tram Valley Road.
By 1861 he was finished with the timber trade and two years later was elected to the equivalent of the Auckland Council. Two years later he was elected to the Provincial Council and in 1870, along with Sir George Grey and two other Public Buildings Commissioners, he helped oversee the creation of Auckland Hospital.
The following year he was elected to Parliament and he remained a serving national politician for the rest of his career, making him a member of that almost legendary group who helped create the New Zealand we know today. He was then appointed to the Legislative Council where he served until his death on 23 April 1903. William Swanson died a few days short of his 84th birthday and is buried with his family at Waikumete Cemetery. Interesting what you find when you look further ! Dave
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gc
Member
Posts: 289
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Post by gc on Sept 25, 2021 23:49:58 GMT
Hi Dave
Beautiful cover, I certainly would not have had that tucked away, it would definitively be front and centre of any exhibit.
What do you think the manuscript says:
"Kirkwood wants me to take care of Helen MCgr.....
Not sure of the first word either, whether it is a single word or two words.
Anyway if it is a genuine Headquarters" excised, then a real real beauty.
Thanks for sharing
Grant
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Sept 26, 2021 0:31:49 GMT
What do you think the manuscript says: "Kirkwood wants me to take care of Helen MCgr....." Not sure of the first word either, whether it is a single word or two words. Hi Grant The cover hasn't exactly been hidden away as such, it was in one of my Chalon stockbooks along with other covers I have, it just wasn't highlighted for any particular reason ... :-) My reading of the m/s is "Kirkwood wants me to take care of Helen McGregor" - Swanson / Kirkwood / McGregor all Scottish surnames! Anyway, the obliterator doesn't (in my opinion) line up correctly. It may have been lifted and replaced at some time. Perhaps Philip may have something to say about it being the excised 'Headquarters' obliterator or NOT ..... Its not as good looking as those Chalon covers with multiple different colored values on them, but, if a genuine example of the obliterator then very interesting in it being possibly the latest use of it. Dave
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gc
Member
Posts: 289
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Post by gc on Sept 26, 2021 6:19:40 GMT
Hi Dave Yes I agree, that stamp may have been lifted and replaced. Could the stamp have actually been that high that the top was folded over the cover. I am looking at the bars of the obliterator and also small parts of the manuscript cancel on the stamp itself, trying to see where they may have lined up. For those readers that have not seen a complete strike, here is a cover ( unfortunately not my cover ). This cover is a real beauty. Cheers Grant
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Sept 27, 2021 3:05:56 GMT
Hi Grant I agree. It appears that it may well have been moved down a little when replaced (after lifting). I have done a quick mock up in 'Paint' and things align better when the stamp is moved back up a couple of mm. Dave
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Post by tundrawolf on Sept 28, 2021 3:20:02 GMT
Hi Guys, interesting cover Dave. I really don't know if it's the excised Headquarters obliterator, Tauranga, or the excised Queens Redoubt obliterator, Pokeno. Both are 29mm long with the Queens Redoubt 20mm across and Headquarters 22mm, so not much in it. The biggest difference is the ends of the rectangle from which the names have been erased, Queens Redoubt the ends are open, Headquarters closed. It's clearly twisted and smudged when it was applied. If I had to guess I would say Headquarters but I haven't been able to find any information on how long the excised Queens Redoubt obliterator was used for.
I enhanced the image and I don't believe it's been lifted, there are marks that line up just fine where it is. I think it's just the smudging that makes it look like it's out of alignment.
Philip
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Oct 2, 2021 0:29:20 GMT
Hi Philip
Thanks for your thoughts on the cover. Agreed that the obliterator is smudged and worn, makes it quite difficult to determine exactly which cancel it is. 'Headquarters' or 'Queens Redoubt'.
Looking at the ends of the 'erased' wording it looks to me to be open but then !!
More study of the two obliterators and the history of them is reqd.
Dave
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Oct 2, 2021 0:56:29 GMT
Here is an interesting obliterator postmark. The stamp is SG134 2d Vermillion p12.5 from 1872-73 Here is what Vol.7 p223 of the RPSNZ books says about this one : So, it is not clear exactly when this 7-bar oblit with letters was first introduced but it is thought around 1873-74, this is the end of the Chalon period! So this obliterator on a Chalon must be uncommon. Does anyone else have one? Dave
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Oct 2, 2021 21:21:46 GMT
Looking at Grants cover above, if the 'Queens Redoubt' obliterator is open ended then that cover is 'Queens Redoubt' name erased!
All I have found currently on the 'Queens Redoubt' name excised cancel is that it was in use at the British Military encampment at Pokeno from 22 August 1863 until 31 October 1865.
Where was it in use after October 1865, after the 'Queens Redoubt' name had been excised from it?
More work required ....
Dave
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Oct 2, 2021 21:57:31 GMT
Here is an interesting link found regards the establishment of a Visitor Center on the site of the Queens Redoubt, with some history around that time : Queens Redoubt Projectand a link to to the Queens Redoubt Trust website: Queens Redoubt Trust websiteAnd here is a (poor quality) image of a cover bearing the 'Queens Redoubt' oblit - part of the Laver correspondence in the Gerald Ellott collection. Dave
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Post by tundrawolf on Oct 4, 2021 2:03:20 GMT
Interesting Queens Redoubt links there Dave. The excised Queens Redoubt obliterator was used in the Civil post Office in Pokeno after the Queens Redoubt post office was closed on 31st October 1865. This is supported by one known cover posted on 1st October 1866 but I can't find any information on how long it was used for. Going back to your TU Timaru cancel, a nice clear cancel, I don't have one and I've never seen one until yours so I'm guessing it could be rare. I do have another cancel in a similar vein, A67 of Tauranga which was also believed to have been supplied before the end of 1873, a poor strike but probably also rare. Philip
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Oct 4, 2021 2:44:14 GMT
Thanks Philip. I have not seen an oblit A/67 on a Chalon before either. Only on Sideface stamps! Interesting. I also found this article on Gerald Ellotts website: It is regards the Queens Redoubt Postal History Queens Redoubt Postal History - Gerald EllottIn it he states that the only known cover bearing the 'Queens Redoubt' name excised obliterator marking is on a cover from October 1866. It is the only one known from any period!! Dave
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gc
Member
Posts: 289
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Post by gc on Oct 4, 2021 4:30:03 GMT
Hi Dave and Philip
Great items guys, especially yours Dave with the clarity. I too have not seen either of these on Chalons.
Keep on showing them, great to see.
Cheers Grant
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gc
Member
Posts: 289
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Post by gc on Oct 5, 2021 6:07:27 GMT
Hi Dave and Philip Here's an interesting stamp What are your thoughts ? I will show just the front first Cheers Grant
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Oct 5, 2021 6:35:58 GMT
Hi Grant
Interesting :-)
Spoiler alert. Before I noticed something really crucial when doing some research on this one I had only got to a couple of immediate conclusions :
Very worn imperf 2d blue - so SG39 or SG98 Top right corner CDS looks like a 'Province-of-Auckland' cancel Left margin is interesting!!!
However, I have just seen something that would probably give the answer away so will give it a day or so and see if anyone else sees it!! :-)
Dave
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banknoteguy
Member
Posts: 324
What I collect: 19th Century US, High denomination US (> $1), 19th century covers US, Indian Feudatory States and most recently I acquired a BigBlue [with about 5,000 stamps] and pristine pages.
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Post by banknoteguy on Oct 5, 2021 11:51:52 GMT
gc asked,
I love puzzles! I know almost nothing about Chalons. But what the heck ...
I can't determine which watermark is present or even whether there is a watermark -- but it looks likely there is a watermark.
The left/right square blocks at the bottom look too strong for a 98 and too weak for a 39.
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Oct 5, 2021 17:19:39 GMT
Hi Everyone, just a note that the reprint posts have been moved to "New Zealand: Chalon Head Reprints & Proofs" so it is much easier to find them. Thanks to Beryllium Guy .
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gc
Member
Posts: 289
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Post by gc on Oct 8, 2021 7:49:09 GMT
gc asked,
I love puzzles! I know almost nothing about Chalons. But what the heck ...
I can't determine which watermark is present or even whether there is a watermark -- but it looks likely there is a watermark.
The left/right square blocks at the bottom look too strong for a 98 and too weak for a 39.
Hi all Here is a view of the back. I am positive the majority of the stamp is a genuine SG98 "NZ" watermark paper. Cheers Grant
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Oct 8, 2021 18:39:37 GMT
Sorry Grant I forgot to answer within a day or two didnt I! :-)
Added left margin !
Dave
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Oct 8, 2021 19:21:52 GMT
Are you registered for the big auction today Grant? The 'Odenweller Reference Collection' @ Auckland City Stamps Odenweller Reference CollectionSome 'juicy' lots in there ! Right up your alley :-) ..... and other things that I won't further allude to !! Have fun Dave
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gc
Member
Posts: 289
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Post by gc on Oct 9, 2021 3:02:57 GMT
Cheers Dave Whow, prices too steep for me. Nice looking though
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gc
Member
Posts: 289
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Post by gc on Oct 9, 2021 3:07:16 GMT
Sorry Grant I forgot to answer within a day or two didnt I! :-) Added left margin ! Dave This is very very skillfull work. It is impossible to see a join from the front. I am convinced the left hand margin and part of the image is added.I also think part of the lower margin is added. Wider on the right ( as viewed from thew front ) and gets thinner as you proceed to the left. Originally I thought the lower postmark was added, but I now think it is actually part of a "5 Otahuhu A" cancel. Cheers Grant
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,547
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Oct 20, 2021 21:29:02 GMT
These have been posted into the SON thread so thought that as they are on Chalons we had better put them in here as well : Dave
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Oct 20, 2021 21:37:35 GMT
Another Chalon from the SON thread
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