Beryllium Guy
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Posts: 5,669
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Apr 25, 2020 11:26:08 GMT
For what it's worth, Al ( angore ), I agree with you about COGH, especially the triangles. If you want to see some nice collections of COGH triangle issues, check out this long-dormant thread: thestampforum.boards.net/thread/416/cape-good-hope(Edit: above link no longer works, as the earlier thread was later combined with this one, but the images are still here, just in this thread.) Two inactive members, comingfrom and antoniusra both have wonderful collections with lots of nice examples, shown in all their glory.
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angore
Member
Posts: 5,386
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Apr 25, 2020 11:35:47 GMT
Thanks. antoniusra is still occasionally active on SOR.
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Post by nbstamper on Apr 27, 2020 2:11:40 GMT
A couple of Cape Triangles from my collection. Hopefully they are genuine.
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Post by marking on Apr 28, 2020 18:32:52 GMT
A Guide on Genuine Characteristics of COGH Stamps "Hope" Seated Triangle Design (Sc Type A1), 1853-1864COGH, SG 8 (Sc 6) Plate Proof in Black (Note: the features may not apply in all cases) 1. The rays extend almost to the corners 2. 4 diamond shapes should be visible 3. Color blotch inside the C 4. Small dot of color below mid bar of the F 5. White line inside the D 6. The O is slightly higher than the others 7. There is a cross shape inside the netting 8. The lower serif extends further out 9. The bottom bar of the E extends further out than the top 10. The corner designs have a circle with an inner circle 11. There is a dot of color attached to the forehead 12. The eye has a distinct pupil and the nose is pointed - the eye & pupil are not as prominent on issued stamps 13. The 5 hand digits are visible and the index is long 14. The point of the anchor is not visible 15. There is a shadow around the figure 16. Key features are the 3 dots that form a boomerang shape at several points in the background 17. The tip has 2 shading lines (not always visible) and points to the second O 18. The toes are visible and both feet are proportionate COGH, SG 2 (Sc 2) Plate Proof with "rainbow" netting after PENCE - note the solid, black section in it A guide on types next....
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Post by marking on Apr 29, 2020 20:53:47 GMT
The Triangle TypesThis is generally not well published, but 2 different dies were used for some of the stamps and are readily distinguished. I pointed out the main differences, but there are many more. 1-Penny Die A 1-Penny Die B: The leaves are different, the openings are larger, and the design inner end tip is more pointed. 4-Pence Die A 4-Pence Die B: There is a notch in the F, the lower leg of the E does not extend out as far, and the middle of the C is thinner. 6-Pence Die A 6-Pence Die B: The top of the S is flatter, the lower leg of the E does not extend out as far, and the C is thicker. 1-Shilling Die A 1-Shilling Die B: The bar of the H is thinner, the serif of the I is better defined, the serif of the N extends further to the left, and the opening in the G is larger.
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Post by marking on Apr 29, 2020 21:05:01 GMT
Cape of Good Hope, Sc 1-22 Arranged on Hagner Stock SheetMy early COGH is pretty meager, but I am hoping to improve on that. Like many collectors, I am fascinated by the triangles, so I will attempt to put a few more nice ones into the collection. Good - you managed to get examples of both Die A (top) and Die B (bottom)
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,669
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Apr 29, 2020 23:02:50 GMT
Marc ( marking ), many thanks for your great posts on this thread. I am learning a lot, and really appreciating it. You said: I have a question for you: are the Dies A and B related to the printers, Perkins Bacon and De La Rue? Or are the Die types independent of the printers, meaning that it is possible to find both Dies A & B made by both printers? Just trying to understand how the two Die types fit in the whole picture for the COGH triangles. I am also curious if you know anything about the color varieties of Sc 13 (SG 19), 4-pence deep blue, blue, slate blue, and steel blue. Mine appears different in color from a more typical one, which I am assuming to be either blue or deep blue. And there is a post of a stamp that has been expertized as steel blue early in this thread, and mine looks different from that, too. I was unable to find anything in my searches that appears to be the same color as my copy. Any comments you can offer or resources you can recommend would be greatly appreciated.
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Post by marking on Apr 29, 2020 23:35:39 GMT
I have a question for you: are the Dies A and B related to the printers I am also curious if you know anything about the color varieties of Sc 13 (SG 19) The triangular stamps in the four plates made by Perkins Bacon were arranged in pairs forming squares In 1924 it was discovered that there were constant differences between the two stamps of each square pair that easily made them distinguishable as Die A & B Given their age and treatment, finding some of the colors like brownish-red or reddish-brown are somewhat challenging, but with the SG 19 it is easier. However these were scanned at different times on different scanners so..... COGH, SG 19 (Sc 13) 4-pence Deep Blue, 1864 COGH, SG 19a (Sc 13) 4-pence Blue, 1863 (Stamp certified as SG 19a by Gibbons) (Note: This stamp may be Sc 13c, 4-pence Pale Grayish Blue, a color not listed in SG) COGH, SG 19c (Sc 13b) 4-pence Steel Blue, 1863 - this one has "shades" The COGH, SG 19b (Sc 13a) Slate Blue, 1864 has eluded me. There is also what is coined a "Woolly Print" - a somewhat rare but certified variety with a fuzzy look.
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,669
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Apr 30, 2020 6:26:16 GMT
Possible SG19b (Sc13a) 4-pence Slate Blue, 1864? Many thanks for your previous post, Marc ( marking ). Here is the stamp for which I am curious about the color variety. I have tried to mimic the size and style of the images in your previous post for purposes of comparison, recognizing that of course, these are just scanned images, so real color comparisons are probably illusory. It was fellow TSF member Jon ( blaamand ) who originally suggested to me that this stamp might be the elusive slate-blue shade. To me at least, the color of the above stamp does not look similar to any of the three you have posted. Do you have an opinion, Marc?
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Post by marking on Apr 30, 2020 11:14:31 GMT
To me at least, the color of the above stamp does not look similar to any of the three you have posted. Do you have an opinion, Marc? I made an adjustment so the background is true black I would say there is a chance that it is a slate blue The deep blue I posted is at the extreme end of "deep" I would like to see a little more gray in yours but it looks promising I will make a contact to see if I can get a sample - it rarely comes up on any auctions
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Post by marking on Apr 30, 2020 20:09:16 GMT
OK - received what is apparently an SG 19b Slate blue
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madbaker
Member
Posts: 698
What I collect: (Mark) General worldwide collector (to 1975 or so) with a soft spot for Sweden and the rest of Scandinavia.
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Post by madbaker on Apr 30, 2020 20:15:16 GMT
marking thank you for sharing your knowledge here. I love looking for these types of die differences. This is fun to watch even though i don't have any triangles to compare to.
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nikhil
Member
Working on Australia, GDR, Japan
Posts: 552
What I collect: I collect WW. Looking for early issues.
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Post by nikhil on May 1, 2020 4:18:38 GMT
Beryllium Guy - Nice arrangement of COGH stamps you got ! I bought a few COGH QV Stamps which I'll post sometime. marking - Here is another 19b Slate blue from an auction site -
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,669
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on May 1, 2020 6:46:57 GMT
Many thanks to Marc ( marking) and Nikhil ( nikhil) for your posts about the appearance of the COGH, SG 19b Slate Blue color variety. I have looked at the two images that you have posted, and at least to my eye, they look similar to each other in color shade, so I think I see some consistency there. When I compare them to mine, I think that they do not appear to be the same color. I wonder if these apparent SG 19b Slate Blue stamps have been expertized for their color? In looking at them, to me they do not exhibit any evidence of gray tones at all. In fact, if I did not know that these are supposed to be Slate Blue, I would have guessed Violet Blue, or something along those lines. Whatever color they are in reality, they do not look like what I would have described as Slate Blue, by any stretch. In Nikhil's example, if there is any evidence of gray, to my eye, it would seem to be the paper, not the color of the stamp. Ah, well, I admit that I am a bit disappointed in this latest development, but I am not completely put off. The color shade of my stamp does not look like any other that I have seen, so I am going to continue to keep comparing it to other examples as opportunities arise. And frankly, at least to me, my stamp appears much more like a dark gray blue than any other copy I have seen, either in person or as an electronic image. Once the lockdown is over, I think I will take my stamp to the British Library in London where the Taplinger Collection is housed, and I will see if I can find a COGH SG 19b there for comparison. Color shades (of any stamps) are an area that I rarely explore, because it seems something that is very difficult to pin down, as there is inherently a certain amount of subjectivity there. Anyway, thanks to you both for your efforts. It is much appreciated! P.S. Marc, I will PM you about how you adjusted my posted image to have a "true black" background. It looks better that way, and if I can learn how to do that for myself, I think I may be able to improve the quality of my posted images. But such a discussion does not belong in this thread, so I will PM you about it.
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,290
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on May 1, 2020 8:58:27 GMT
I might be missing something here but I have to ask are nikhil and marking posting images of actual stamps here or are these images of images? The print quality is blurred in both examples it does not look crisp enough, in fact if I had been offered them I would have suspected reprints. But what would I know of These issues having only had half a dozen pass through my collections in a long collecting career. I am no expert, just curious was the print quality really that poor?
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nikhil
Member
Working on Australia, GDR, Japan
Posts: 552
What I collect: I collect WW. Looking for early issues.
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Post by nikhil on May 1, 2020 14:17:43 GMT
I might be missing something here but I have to ask are nikhil and marking posting images of actual stamps here or are these images of images? The print quality is blurred in both examples it does not look crisp enough, in fact if I had been offered them I would have suspected reprints. But what would I know of These issues having only had half a dozen pass through my collections in a long collecting career. I am no expert, just curious was the print quality really that poor? The image I posted was taken direct from an auction site. That thought struck me too, but I actually have no idea. Maybe marking would be able to comment.
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Post by marking on May 1, 2020 14:25:35 GMT
I am no expert, just curious was the print quality really that poor? The SG 19 series has what are called "Woollies" They have varying degrees of Woolliness - so I cannot speak for either of the above. Mine (AS NOTED) is a direct scan sent to me by someone very good at the process, and the other I have no control over as it is (AS NOTED) from an auction and generally their images are not great. I make no comments on the quality of scans I see here. This one is a certified Woolly, just as it appears: COGH, SG 19 (Sc 13) Deep Blue "Woolly" Print (Note: The woolly area refers to the background behind the image of 'Hope'.) Photo Credit: Siegel Auctions website, cropped from pair, color unaltered, stamp described as authentic "Woolly" with Sismondo certificate
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,290
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on May 1, 2020 18:50:14 GMT
Now that Woolie I can see crisp where it should be sharp, it was just that the earlier were fuzzy woolies , as if too long in the washing machine . Seriously I was confused that they were not sharp at the edges and looked like images from a catalogue. I know print quality had slipped from the original state but just wondered how far.
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Post by michael on May 9, 2020 12:35:29 GMT
Thanks marking for the great scans.
I'm hopeless at colours and shades so have to rely on dealers experience/honesty. However, I've already had to send one c.o.g.h. stamp back to a reputable dealer that allegedly was 5a rose but turned out to be an more like the 18c brownish red. I'm having a similar problem with the 1 shilling green so would like advice please on these two (scanned together) with respect to being either a Perkins Bacon printing or a De La Rue printing. Are they the same or from different printers and are they SG8b or SG21 ?
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Post by marking on May 9, 2020 13:57:17 GMT
Thanks marking for the great scans. I'm hopeless at colours and shades so have to rely on dealers experience/honesty. However, I've already had to send one c.o.g.h. stamp back to a reputable dealer that allegedly was 5a rose but turned out to be an more like the 18c brownish red. I'm having a similar problem with the 1 shilling green so would like advice please on these two (scanned together) with respect to being either a Perkins Bacon printing or a De La Rue printing. Are they the same or from different printers and are they SG8b or SG21 ? SG 8b is a deep dark green & lighter shades SG 21 is shades of Emerald Green that has a blue tinge I color corrected them to see the results (may or may not be accurate) I do not think any shade of SG 21 emerald is there without actually seeing the stamps But these have decent margins and nice keepers
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Post by michael on May 9, 2020 17:50:26 GMT
Many thanks marking. The first was purchased some time ago as SG 8b. Looks like the 2nd one, bought from a reputable dealer recently as a SG 21, emerald green, should be returned? Yes, nice stamp, but I only want one of each colour and printer (8 in total).
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Post by marking on May 10, 2020 11:00:23 GMT
Many thanks marking . The first was purchased some time ago as SG 8b. Looks like the 2nd one, bought from a reputable dealer recently as a SG 21, emerald green, should be returned? Yes, nice stamp, but I only want one of each colour and printer (8 in total). Here are two SG 21 from Siegel Auctions - probably the most accurate seller online:
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,669
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jul 18, 2020 21:18:59 GMT
Greetings, everyone! I wanted to take this opportunity to let you know that after some hours of work over the past few days, I have been able to restore suitable images to those deleted by former member marking on this thread. Thanks to Jon ( blaamand ), who took copies of some of the key images for identification of the COGH triangle features and Die types, I was able to restore those broken links with the original images. In other cases, I have done some internet research to find the best available images that meet the descriptions, largely based on marking's own comments on the most reliable seller on the internet, who turned out to have an extensive archive of good-quality images. There are still some more posts that need to have images restored before they can be returned to this thread, and those will be my next project. To celebrate the completion of "Phase 1" of the restoration of this thread, I am also posting my own recent acquisition of a used copy of COGH, Sc 1 below. Although I am confident in the dealer from whom I bought the stamp, who identified it as Sc 1, I am still struggling a bit on the SG identification. The reverse is definitely blued, but I don't know if it qualifies as "deeply blued" which would make it SG 1, or "slightly blued" which would make it SG 3. If you look at this scan of the stamp from the front-side, you can actually see traces of the bluing in the image of Hope in the center. I will post a scan of the back in the future to collect opinions. In the meantime, please enjoy this thread again, now with newly restored images. COGH, Sc 1, 1-penny Brick Red on Bluish Paper COGH, SG 3, 1-penny Brick-Red on Slightly Blued Paper (tentative identification)
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blaamand
Member
Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
Posts: 1,459
What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
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Post by blaamand on Jul 18, 2020 22:49:11 GMT
Great effort Chris! And a sweet triangle. I can't make any assessment of the grade of bluish paper, difficult to tell from a scan, so you're in the best position to say. It's certainly an adorable stamp, congrats 😊
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,669
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Sept 23, 2020 20:15:32 GMT
I agree that the Cape of Good Hope triangles are among my favourite stamps too! Here is the one specimen I have been able to get (YT #4): Almost two years ago, Xavier posted his COGH triangle as part of this thread. It has taken me a long time of study to come to the conclusion that I should say something about this, and I am finally doing that now. It is often said that when a door closes, a window opens. The sudden departure of member marking sent me on a mission to replace the holes that he left in this thread when he took his images with him, and in looking online for replacement images, I started to learn. I would like to say now that I am still much more student than teacher, but I have learned a few things over these past months. During this time, I have studied many hundreds, perhaps now even thousands of images of COGH triangles. I have gotten to the point that I feel confident in being able to tell genuine stamps from forgeries. That said, I still have trouble telling Perkins Bacon printings from De La Rue, but I least I can get the process to that point. OK, enough preamble. After studying many images, and then looking back through the TSF posts, I thought I could see that there were problems with Xavier's stamp. Now follows an illustrated commentary of my thought process: COGH, 4-pence dark blue, identified by Xavier as YT#4 in Dec-2018 At first glance, I agreed with this assessment, but later I began to wonder.... Xavier's stamp, with areas of concern the more I looked at it. Upper left: frameline in evidence that I have never seen on a genuine example, no matter how ample the margins Face: one of the tell-tale signs for me, as I think that Hope's face is artfully done on genuine examples, but vacant on the imitations Scrollwork: from the earlier posts, I knew that the scrollwork should show a cross-hatched netting effect, which was absent Lettering: I also thought that the letters were slightly undersized in both height and robustness--they just didn't look quite right Here are some close-ups, side by side, to illustrate my points: top row faces, and bottom row, lower left corners Left: Genuine COGH, SG6 (Sc4) 4-pence Blue; Right: Xavier's stamp Note the differences in the details from the left side images of the genuine example versus those on the right. To my eye, there is no question. COGH Forgery Image, re-posted with permission from Morten ( classicalstamps ) from his website: stampforgeries.com/forged-stamps-of-cape-of-good-hope-triangle-4d/To me, this image, as well as those of Spiro Forgeries from Morten's site, told me that Xavier's stamp is, unfortunately, most likely a forgery. To Xavier's great credit, he took the news stoically when I told it to him as a friend, as gently, but as truthfully as I could. Again, I profess to be a student, rather than an expert in this field, but I felt sure that I had seen his stamp for what it truly was. So, I made him a promise, once I had made this discovery, that I would not just point out a problem and walk away from it, but that I would help him, as a specialist collector of Africa, to fix this situation and make it right. From this point, I will let Xavier tell the rest of the story!
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renden
Member
Posts: 8,734
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Sept 23, 2020 20:32:58 GMT
Very well done, Chris Beryllium Guy - I hate the fact ((censored)) that I sent all of my COGH to you I loved your last envelope with a COGH cinderellla !! René
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hrdoktorx
Member
Posts: 6,633
What I collect: France (and French territories), Africa, Canada, USA, Germany, Guatemala, stamps about science, flags, maps, stamps on stamps...
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Post by hrdoktorx on Sept 23, 2020 20:58:39 GMT
From this point, I will let Xavier tell the rest of the story! OK. Here goes. When Chris approached me with his suspicions, and asked me to look at my stamp closely with a possible forgery in mind, what convinced me what the shading of the toga compared to Hope's fair skin, which to me appeared clearly different from genuine examples and more reminiscent of a Spiro forgery (which would be my second confirmed one, after JeffS detected my copy of Guatemala #1 was another Spiro artifact ). But, as he said, he promised to "make it right" by helping me to secure a genuine copy. Indeed, within a couple of days, he had found a couple of sellers of eBay and he ordered one for me (he has been reimbursed, of course) after I settled on a particular copy, and that is the one I received today: So all is well that ends well. If I recall correctly, I really got swindled with the forged copy, for which I paid quite a lot more than the genuine article! I will keep both in my stockbook side-by-side as a cautionary tale and to help me with future identifications.
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,669
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Oct 11, 2020 21:27:18 GMT
Moving Forward on Cape of Good Hope Triangles
By now, most of you have probably realized that I am slow when it comes to making posts of any substance on the Forum. I do research, and I try to be sure that when I do things, they are valid, logical, and correct. I wasn't always like this, but it has become my way. It must be the engineer in me. I also know that sometimes I overthink things, but I hope that is not the case now.
A few months ago, I replaced images that were deleted from posts by marking, but there were more posts than just the ones you see can in the thread now. My original plan was to find replacement images and restore the rest of those earlier posts, but then I thought, if I don't have those actual original images, it isn't really the right way to do the thing. I should just start over again with the images that I have collected, and post them in their own right.
So, that's what will be following this post. I am going to start posting images that I have collected from various sources over the past few months, and try to give some guidelines for identification of the COGH triangles. I am certainly a latecomer to this area (COGH triangles), and as I have said before, I consider myself more student than teacher. Nonetheless, I have realized that the Internet gives us access to so much information, that it is possible to learn things these days more quickly than ever before.
Wherever possible, I will use images of stamps from my own collection, but I admit that my holdings are still relatively modest at this point, and nowhere near complete enough to constitute an identification reference on their own. So, I will supplement liberally with images found on other sites. In areas where I am not entirely sure, I will post the images with as much information as I can, and then hope that we can figure things out together.
With that preamble, I will begin posting what I have been able to find, which will hopefully help other members here on TSF to identify their own stamps, or feel more confident in making new acquisitions, and of course, to spark discussion that may lead us to clearer conclusions than when we started.
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,669
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Oct 11, 2020 22:19:58 GMT
Identifying Cape of Good Hope Triangle Issues The Beginning, 1853Although I grew up in the US, and I used Scott Catalogues exclusively in my youth, I have come to appreciate the value of other catalogues, largely through my experiences here on TSF. For COGH Triangles, the Stanley Gibbons (SG) Catalogue numbering seems by far the most widely accepted, so I will use that for these issues. But I feel compelled to say that now that I have studied these issues a bit, I actually think that the Scott (Sc) numbering makes a bit more sense. Nonetheless, I will use SG first and Sc secondarily. For the first issues of COGH, it is important to understand that they were printed by Perkins Bacon & Co. by a process that used the compound potassium ferrocyanide (originally referred to as potassium prussiate) either in the ink or the paper that unintentionally tinted the paper blue. The ferrocyanide was used to prevent the removal of cancellations by chemical means, making it effectively a precursor to water-soluble inks. It is, therefore, the presence of evidence of this blueing effect from the potassium ferrocyanide which is a must for correctly identifying the early printings of these stamps. Here are some examples: COGH, SG1 (Sc1a), 1-penny Pale Brick Red on Deeply Blued Paper ("Ivory Head/Cameo" and "Framed" variety) COGH, SG1a (Sc1b), 1-penny Deep Brick Red on Deeply Blued Paper ("Ivory Head/Cameo" and "Framed" variety) Comments & Observations:According to what I have read, it seems that the distinctions between "deeply blued" and "slightly blued" paper are relatively subjective. This is partly why I think that the Scott numbering for COGH is better. All of these stamps were made at the same time; it is not that the deeply blued ones came before the slightly blued ones. The difference results from how wet the sheets of paper were at the time of printing. The wetter the sheets, the more deep the blueing. Scott lists all of the blued paper issues as variants of Sc1 and Sc2, where SG1 and SG2 are those with deeply blued paper, and SG3 and SG4 are those with slightly blued paper. Considering that the extent of the blueing was simply dependent on how wet the paper was at the time of printing, this would hardly seem like proper justification for separate catalogue numbers, but that is what SG has done, and it is how most collectors classify these issues. In any case, for correctly identifying these stamps, the appearance of the blueing on the reverse is the key point. It is not actually to do with how much blueing may or may not be evident on the front of the stamp. Consequently, for these first issues of COGH, I will show scans of both fronts and backs, so that it is clear what you need to look for. Stay tuned.... more to come tomorrow!
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renden
Member
Posts: 8,734
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Oct 11, 2020 22:31:38 GMT
Hey Chris Beryllium Guy - when I did my custom FRANCE (classics only) I used Maury and Scott cats and found more info in Maury - On most of my pages I cited the Sc #s and Maury #s but felt that the Scott system of numbering did not follow very well. Each Country is different. Thanks for your thoughts on the subject. René
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