Lila Schatten
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Post by Lila Schatten on Feb 22, 2017 14:46:08 GMT
Ok, I'm not sure what they are officially called, (the root of my problem with which Google has been particularly unhelpful) but I am talking about stamps that have been printed directly onto the envelope. Some of them have also been embossed. I can work on getting a picture up sometime this afternoon if that would help.
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Beryllium Guy
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Posts: 5,908 
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Feb 22, 2017 15:08:03 GMT
Ok, I'm not sure what they are officially called, (the root of my problem with which Google has been particularly unhelpful) but I am talking about stamps that have been printed directly onto the envelope. Some of them have also been embossed. I can work on getting a picture up sometime this afternoon if that would help. Thanks for your response and description, Lila. I thought that this might be what you meant.
Stamps that are printed directly onto envelopes are called "postal stationery", a term which takes a bit to digest, as the emphasis seems to be on the envelope (stationery) more than on the stamp!
Anyway, Frog is quite right that information on postal stationery can be found in a Scott catalogue. I collect pre-1930 worldwide stamps, for example, and I use the Scott Classic Specialized Catalogue 1840-1940, since it covers my entire time period in a single volume.
In the U.S. listings of that catalogue, there is a section toward the back of the listings after the regular adhesive postage stamps, airmails, postage due stamps, and other "back of the book" stuff, there is a heading for "Stamped Envelopes and Wrappers", which is exactly what you are looking for. The catalogue numbers for these items begin with "U1".
The limitation with the Scott catalogue seems to be that it only has the postal stationery listings for the U.S. and no other countries, at least not that I could find in the Classic Specialized Catalogue.
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Lila Schatten
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Mainly U.S, Germany, and Japan, but my motto is "ooh, pretty. Mine." hence all the binders of stamps
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Post by Lila Schatten on Feb 22, 2017 15:10:17 GMT
Ok, thank you! That clears things up quite a bit. Now I just need to plot excuses to go to the library...
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Ryan
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Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,749
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Feb 22, 2017 22:05:09 GMT
I am talking about stamps that have been printed directly onto the envelope. Some of them have also been embossed. As mentioned earlier, postal stationery often ends up focusing on the entire envelope (or post card, or newspaper wrapper, or whatever the original happened to be). There are specific catalogues for postal stationery and many of them only price the entire piece - not so good for me, since I mostly come across the cutout pieces that have only the stamp design on it. However, many people like me are happy to have only the little cutout piece. In fact, enough of us are here that we have already started a big long thread on this forum that is filled with such "treasures". Have a look here at Mutilated Postal Stationery for some of the things we've found so far. Ryan |
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Lila Schatten
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Mainly U.S, Germany, and Japan, but my motto is "ooh, pretty. Mine." hence all the binders of stamps
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Post by Lila Schatten on Feb 23, 2017 3:59:18 GMT
First a picture, then a story  It all started on a sunny day many years ago. I was a wee little lass at my first stamp exposition, and one of the vendors was giving out 6 free mystery stamps to anyone who purchased an item at his stall. My brother sidled up to the vendor with a cheeky smile and a "1994 blackbook price guide" in hand. The vendor placed his book in a bag along with a single glassine envelope, and my brother triumphantly marched off to find other treasures. Then it was my turn. I, polite and graceful as ever, shoved a packet of butterfly stamps and a fistful of change at the vendor, who graciously accepted my offering of pennies and dimes, counted them swiftly, and at last placed my purchase in a bag along with the mystery treasure. That evening after my brother and I put away our purchases we were finally ready to open our mystery stamps. I, polite and graceful as ever, asked him to open his first, claiming that I was not yet a lady, and therefore it was not my duty. He pulled out six "epic-looking" stamps with space shuttles and planets on them. However, when I opened my mystery envelope I was met with the sight of six pieces of embossed paper. They were not even "real stamps." Needless to say, I was, and maybe still am, just the tiniest bit jealous. (I love spaceships, ok?) The End ...until today, when I finally figured out what these "not real stamps" actually are. Thanks again! |
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Beryllium Guy
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Posts: 5,908
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Feb 23, 2017 5:21:54 GMT
Thanks for sharing, Edith. I love a good story, and yours is clearly one!
As a lover of adhesive stamps myself, I can easily see how you might have been a bit disappointed to have received what is termed on TSF as "mutilated postal stationery" rather than the pictorial stamps that your brother got. In some circles, these bits of postal stationery go by the more refined term of "cut squares".
In any case, although they are not the same as regular postage stamps, they are still quite collectible, and if it makes any difference to you at all, I am guessing that your cut squares probably have higher catalogue value than the more colorful epic-looking stamps in your brother's packet.
Just a little food for thought....
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Post by mdroth on Feb 23, 2017 7:39:12 GMT
Hi Lila! (Is your name Edith? Lila?? I'm confused!!)
Do we also understand - correctly - from your introduction - that you're 17-18 years old? (If my math is correct??)
Welcome & great to see you here!
The knowledge & resources available to you - in general, but especially on this forum - is staggering. Please feel free to take full advantage of it!
I've never really looked at this thread - seemed way too generic?! And I have wondered where this ridiculous term 'mutilated stationery' came from!! As Mr. Guy and others have pointed out, they are called 'cut squares' - which are the 'common' ( and easiest/cheapest method) to collect postal stationery.
Great story! But again, to echo Mr. Guy - definitely don't be jealous - and your cut squares are most definitely 'postage' - with the identical purpose/function as stamps. Just a different type. Stamp collecting covers a broad range - depending on your interest & definition - that includes what we all know as 'stamps' - but also postal stationery; booklets; covers; sheets; and to take it to one of the rarest degrees - encapsulated postage - (you'll find on google quickly) - which look like coins! (Plus much more!!)
Your cut squares are cool. Great starters. Early US cut squares are complex; lots of varieties & subtlety involved. Very tough to identify, in some cases. Your 1 cent green Franklins, for example, are two different paper types. In your small group, you have 4 regular US, one airmail, and one Brazilian. And like everything else in stamp collecting, you'll find people who specialize & only collect cut squares/postal stationery! (Personally, I'm leaving them for a retirement project - once you see the enormous volumes of different 'die types' in the Scott catalog, you'll understand why!)
Like my fellow colleagues have offered, I'll also be happy to send some more 'mysteries' in an envelope - just message me the address!
Great to see you here & a big welcome. Please do not hesitate to ask whatever you'd like & you'll get more than you bargained for in reply - and generally, very quickly!!
(It's a pain to post pictures on this forum, but it will help answering questions significantly...)
Finally, given that you're no longer a 'wee little lass' - but clearly as of now a 'young lady' - where is the 'cheeky' brother?? You should share with your brother (!) & get him online here too - we're more than capable of handling you both!!
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Londonbus1
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Cinderella Stamp Club Member 3059
Posts: 5,064
What I collect: Wonderland; 1912 Jubilee International Stamp Exhibition, London ('Ideal' Stamp, ephemera); French Cinderellas with an emphasis on Poster Stamps; Israel and Palestine Cinderellas ; Jewish National Fund Stamps, Labels and Tags; London 2010, A Festival of Stamps (anything); South Africa 1937 Coronation issue of KGVI, singles or bi-lingual pairs.
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Post by Londonbus1 on Feb 23, 2017 8:33:44 GMT
First a picture, then a story... Now that is what I mean about 'Philatelic Memories'. This story would have been perfect in the Newsletter. Lovely ! |
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Lila Schatten
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Mainly U.S, Germany, and Japan, but my motto is "ooh, pretty. Mine." hence all the binders of stamps
Posts: 108
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Post by Lila Schatten on Feb 23, 2017 18:12:18 GMT
Wow, thank you all for the positive comments! Yes, I am glad now with the cut squares I received,and although I don't pay much attention to the value of my stamps, I'm more of a "oh look, pretty" kind of gal, it is interesting to know that there is a market for mutilated postage stationery ;-).
mdroth, My real name is Edith, screen name Lila, and your math is spot on! I will PM you my address in a minute. Thank you! As for the cheeky brother, I asked him a couple weeks ago whether he wanted to pick up collecting again, and he said he is "too busy." I'll keep pestering though, if not to get him collecting again then at least to get my stamp tongs back, as he has yet to return them after five years...
Londonbus1, the next time I think of a funny stamp collecting story I will PM it to you before I post it here, in case you want to use it. I am really glad you enjoyed my story!
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tomiseksj
Moderator
Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,385
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Feb 23, 2017 21:34:53 GMT
Recently it seems as if I've died and gone to Ohio prepaid sales tax heaven. In the last three days I've added ten pairs from a lot of 15 that were hardly discernible online. Another needed pair was received in today's mail and one more is on the way.
It is quite difficult to identify the pairs in online listings as there typically are no catalog references given and the image quality is too poor to see the identification markers.
I've also noticed an uptick in competition for lots and I've lost a few that I really would have liked to have had.
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Lila Schatten
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Mainly U.S, Germany, and Japan, but my motto is "ooh, pretty. Mine." hence all the binders of stamps
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Post by Lila Schatten on Feb 24, 2017 4:49:29 GMT
 Last week I bought a nice album of FDCs on ebay, and it came with seven pages full of squares like the one above, which are what reminded me of the "mystery stamps" from years ago. Today I started sorting out some of the duplicates. Should I move my further expeditions into the land of cut squares over to the Mutilated Postal Stationery board, or post them here? Also, can you mount them in an album with normal hinges, or should they be kept in envelopes? |
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firstfrog2013
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What I collect: BNA Liberia St Pierre U.S. Bolivia Turkey
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Feb 24, 2017 14:45:51 GMT
Edith,Two things:
First as mentioned although some may appear the same careful research is needed to look for various varieties.Cataloging is the essence of collecting.
Second I would carefully trim some of the others just for appearance sake.Hinges would work fine.Research other threads for ideas on creating nice pages.I use free download from Bill Steiner site for my blank pages.
And yes these should be posted in mentioned thread.I'm quite sure Steve will move this one .
Our aim is to make everything easily research-able on the forum.Information at the fingertips documented for years to come.
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tomiseksj
Moderator
Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,385
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Feb 25, 2017 2:01:57 GMT
... Should I move my further expeditions into the land of cut squares over to the Mutilated Postal Stationery board, or post them here? ... Edith, If the material is U.S. then I'd prefer that you post in the thread I just created on the U.S. Covers, Postmarks & Postal Stationery board titled Full Corners, Cut Squares and Cut -to-Shape. If the material is non-U.S. but not country specific, post them in the thread titled Worldwide Cut Squares. Country-specific material should be posted in the appropriate country sub-board. Let's save the mutilated thread for postal card cutouts and other, horribly mutilated material. |
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Lila Schatten
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Mainly U.S, Germany, and Japan, but my motto is "ooh, pretty. Mine." hence all the binders of stamps
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Post by Lila Schatten on Feb 25, 2017 3:07:08 GMT
Alright, I am headed to the library tomorrow to steal... ahem.. BORROW their Scott's catalogue, and I will post my findings in the new thread.
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Lila Schatten
Member
Inactive
Mainly U.S, Germany, and Japan, but my motto is "ooh, pretty. Mine." hence all the binders of stamps
Posts: 108
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Post by Lila Schatten on Feb 25, 2017 4:08:22 GMT
As I was going through my cut squares pre-library trip I stumbled across this:  At first I thought it was just another cut square, but the postmark caught my attention. When I picked it up to look closer the oval started to peel off of the paper like an old stamp. So, now I have a mystery. **Calling all Experts:** What is this thing? |
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Feb 25, 2017 4:31:33 GMT
As I was going through my cut squares pre-library trip I stumbled across this: At first I thought it was just another cut square, but the postmark caught my attention. When I picked it up to look closer the oval started to peel off of the paper like an old stamp. So, now I have a mystery. **Calling all Experts:** What is this thing? Well, I am no expert, but I think this is a "Cut-to-Shape" piece of postal stationery which has been glued onto a square piece of paper to make it look like a Cut-Square. Steve's previous post mentions the differences between these two forms of postal stationery.
I hope this helps!
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Lila Schatten
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Mainly U.S, Germany, and Japan, but my motto is "ooh, pretty. Mine." hence all the binders of stamps
Posts: 108
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Post by Lila Schatten on Feb 25, 2017 4:41:21 GMT
Hmm, that makes sense. Is it safe to soak it to remove it from the paper, or can postal stationary be damaged by soaking? Also, do you know what the type of postmark is called? I couldn't find it on google, and as previously mentioned, y'all have gotten me interested in postmarks. Thanks for your help!
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Feb 25, 2017 5:05:09 GMT
Hmm, that makes sense. Is it safe to soak it to remove it from the paper, or can postal stationary be damaged by soaking? Also, do you know what the type of postmark is called? I couldn't find it on google, and as previously mentioned, y'all have gotten me interested in postmarks. Thanks for your help! This Cut-Shape is quite old; it looks to be from the 1870-1871 period, but I cannot be sure of the precise catalogue number. It may be "U82", which is my guess since that is the least expensive of this type and denomination in the catalogue.
As for whether or not it can be safely soaked, I cannot be sure. It depends primarily on the type of glue that was used. If it was water-soluble glue, it might be soakable. If not, then you may end up ruining it. There is also a chance that it is already damaged, which may be why it was glued to another piece of paper in the first place.
If it were me, I would probably just leave it as a "paste-up" Cut-Square and mount it that way until such time as I could replace it with a real Cut-Square. You will need to decide what risk you are willing to take, Edith! It's your material, so it's your decision.....
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Feb 25, 2017 5:10:03 GMT
Oh, I forgot to mention: the cancellation looks like one of the old "cork" cancellations, where they carved pieces of cork into various shapes and images, and then dipped them in ink to cancel the stamps.
This one may be considered a "rosette" or something like that. Some of the 19th Century cork cancellations with intricate designs are known to collectors as "fancy cancels".
But again, I am no expert in this area, so perhaps someone else will be able to offer more information. |
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Lila Schatten
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Mainly U.S, Germany, and Japan, but my motto is "ooh, pretty. Mine." hence all the binders of stamps
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Post by Lila Schatten on Feb 25, 2017 5:13:07 GMT
I'm starting to notice that I am cluttering your threads with a lot of questions. May I propose a new thread for beginner's questions like these? We could call it something cool like "The Novice Corner" or "Apprentice Philatelists." Or I could stop asking such an insanely large amount of questions and practice the very important life skills of patience, in waiting to go to the library, and deeper research, in working harder to find the answers to my own questions.
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Lila Schatten
Member
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Mainly U.S, Germany, and Japan, but my motto is "ooh, pretty. Mine." hence all the binders of stamps
Posts: 108
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Post by Lila Schatten on Feb 25, 2017 5:21:48 GMT
Alright, I will leave it as-is because I don't want to risk damming it. I will definitely look it up in the catalog tomorrow, and even if it is not in great condition it is cool, therefore earning it a place in my album.  Thanks for your help! |
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Post by mdroth on Feb 25, 2017 9:25:34 GMT
In no particular order:
Nothing wrong with your questions - that's the whole point! Ideally, for future reference, in a specific category - like in this case, postal stationery.
When we collect postal stationery, it would generally go in this order - from most to least desirable:
Full / complete ('entires') envelopes (tough to find!)
Cut squares
'Cut-to-Shape' - someone who cut it from the envelope, but instead of a square - with even margins all around the stamp design - they cut precisely around the stamp. Like in your example!
Your cancellation - (as Mr. Guy said!) - is a fancy cancel / cork cancellation. With various names attached to it - including 'circle of wedges' / flower / rosette etc. Very collectible!
I second the ID as Scott Cat # U82.
Can't even imagine what some goofball used to attach it to a separate piece of paper - just leaving it as is just fine.
Cut squares are much more durable than stamps - no problem soaking - but generally, there's nothing to soak! They are 'embossed' into an envelope. Your other examples are normal - this one is doctored (pasted onto random piece of paper) & therefore not a good example to discuss.
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firstfrog2013
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What I collect: BNA Liberia St Pierre U.S. Bolivia Turkey
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Feb 25, 2017 12:57:06 GMT
Edith, I second mdroth's comment nothing better than asking questions.Absolutely nothing better.We welcome them all.That my new friend is a good part of this site's purpose.The sharing of information is also part of the fun.Don't feel alone either I still ask questions after over fifty years into my collection.Learning from collectors from all over the world can't be beat.
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tomiseksj
Moderator
Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,385
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Feb 27, 2017 23:20:17 GMT
Although my day started off badly with an early wake-up call from the chirp of a failing smoke detector battery, it picked up once the day's mail arrived. I was able to fill a number of holes in my Great Britain collection. The old girls are a bit faded but I'm not complaining as I got them at an exceptionally good price. Now if I could only find a good deal on the missing 9p. |
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Feb 28, 2017 16:14:59 GMT
.... The old girls are a bit faded but I'm not complaining as I got them at an exceptionally good price. Now if I could only find a good deal on the missing 9p.
Very nice find, Steve. I checked the Scott catalogue and, of course, the 9p stamp (GB, Scott #106) is the most expensive one of the set.
I also have the same stamps, Steve, and my impression is that the color of your set is no different from mine, so either both our sets are somewhat faded, or this is how the color is supposed to look. Personally, I am more inclined to believe the latter, as many of the Victorian era GB stamps seem to be of relatively light color.
If anyone has these same stamps with darker colors, I would be interested to see them.
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tomiseksj
Moderator
Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,385
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Feb 28, 2017 19:55:13 GMT
Thanks, Chris. I'm going to see if they will clean up nicely. A few have residual gum and/or hinge remnants and I like to give my new acquisitions a brief soak before placing them in the album.
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 2, 2017 4:10:06 GMT
Thanks, Chris. I'm going to see if they will clean up nicely. A few have residual gum and/or hinge remnants and I like to give my new acquisitions a brief soak before placing them in the album. I think that's a good plan, Steve. If they have residual gum on them which has turned brown, removing it could brighten the white backgrounds making the other colors pop and become more distinct.
This is exactly what I do with a lot of my acquisitions from old collections. I would say that it works about 50% of the time, in my experience.
Good luck! I hope it works for you!
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bobby1948
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Sir Edmund Burke
Posts: 690
What I collect: WW to 1945; US mnh 1922-1990; US used and unused to 1922
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Post by bobby1948 on Mar 2, 2017 5:46:42 GMT
In addition to Chris' observation regarding color (they look fine to me also) I noticed the particularly fine centering. This issue is noted for "off kilter" centering. You have a really nice set there!
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Ryan
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Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,749
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Mar 2, 2017 6:21:17 GMT
Thanks, Chris. I'm going to see if they will clean up nicely. A few have residual gum and/or hinge remnants and I like to give my new acquisitions a brief soak before placing them in the album. I think that's a good plan, Steve. If they have residual gum on them which has turned brown, removing it could brighten the white backgrounds making the other colors pop and become more distinct. Note also that the chlorine present in treated public water will brighten paper somewhat when soaking stamps. The amount of brightening depends, of course, on how long you soak the stamps and how much chlorine is in the water. From " Preservation and Care of Philatelic Material" on the American Philatelic Society's website: Ryan |
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Lila Schatten
Member
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Mainly U.S, Germany, and Japan, but my motto is "ooh, pretty. Mine." hence all the binders of stamps
Posts: 108
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Post by Lila Schatten on Mar 3, 2017 5:06:19 GMT
I'm thinking of sorting my new Japanese stamps (thanks again Frog and Bobby!) thematically instead of by Scott number. Page/section ideas include: Mt. Fuji, temples/shrines, fish, art, sports, festivals, war propaganda, nature (general), and emperors. Do y'all have any suggestions for more sections or advice on sorting thematically?
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