skid
Member 
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Aug 7, 2022 19:49:37 GMT
This one looks like an unwatermarked p13. The paper also looks and feels different from other paper. Could it be CP A2c(3)(Z) SG 31b. Where is the ?23 obliterator from?   |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Aug 7, 2022 20:37:15 GMT
Here is what I assume is part of the letters A and U from the TH Saunders watermark CP A2t(Y) 2d Vermilion SG138c. Yes it is :-) Nice score ... how did you come across this one? Dave |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Aug 7, 2022 20:48:05 GMT
This one looks like an unwatermarked p13. The paper also looks and feels different from other paper. Could it be CP A2c(3)(Z) SG 31b. Where is the ?23 obliterator from? There is obvious plate wear there around the head region, so cannot be a 'Richardson' SG31c (otherwise would be like an SG9 or 10 but perfed 13). Like this one:  It will be the 'provisional' paper used by Davies - SG96aBTW The postmark O23 is from Dunstan - nowadays Clyde. Dave |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Aug 7, 2022 20:53:02 GMT
For those of you that don't know, some of the Chalon stamps could in fact change colour. Here are a couple examples and written up page. Nice 1d brown you show on the previous page Grant. It looks like a 'provisional imperf' 1d brown doesnt it! Oxidation does this in the right conditions. It can of course be returned to its original color, have you done that or be thinking of doing this? Dave |
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Aug 7, 2022 20:55:10 GMT
This one looks like an unwatermarked p13. The paper also looks and feels different from other paper. Could it be CP A2c(3)(Z) SG 31b. Where is the ?23 obliterator from? There is obvious plate wear there around the head region, so cannot be a 'Richardson' SG31c (otherwise would be like an SG9 or 10 but perfed 13). Like this one: It will be the 'provisional' paper used by Davies - SG96aBTW The postmark O23 is from Dunstan - nowadays Clyde. Dave ebay. A group of stamps stated to be with faults that had the top left 2 "Jolliffe" reprints (see my previous post), which was what I was after, but also noted this one so was happy winning it. |
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gc
Member
Posts: 289
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Post by gc on Aug 8, 2022 7:01:18 GMT
For those of you that don't know, some of the Chalon stamps could in fact change colour. Here are a couple examples and written up page. Nice 1d brown you show on the previous page Grant. It looks like a 'provisional imperf' 1d brown doesnt it! Oxidation does this in the right conditions. It can of course be returned to its original color, have you done that or be thinking of doing this? Hi Dave I thought I would leave it oxidized, as it clearly shows one reason for the colour change. Cheers Grant |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Aug 8, 2022 9:26:43 GMT
Here is a rather sorry 'Richardson' SG8 - 1d dull orange Kept by me purely to show the effects of oxidation on this color printing.  Dave |
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gc
Member
Posts: 289
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Post by gc on Aug 8, 2022 18:24:43 GMT
Hi Dave
Yes nice example of progressive colour change
Grant
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Aug 13, 2022 1:11:00 GMT
Got this cover front in recently. Auckland to Tasmania Dated Feb 7 72 Boxed 'Too Late' marking on front From RPSNZ Vol.3In 1858, and for many years later, serious inconvenience could result from missing a mail. To protect the Post Office against accusations of inefficiency and culpability, it was essential that, where the sender was at fault and not postal officials, the blame could be correctly attributed. Instructions were therefore given that articles received at offices after the mail had been despatched should be marked with the inscription "Too Late". Dave |
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gc
Member
Posts: 289
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Post by gc on Aug 14, 2022 8:42:31 GMT
Nice cover Dave
Good buy
Grant
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on Aug 25, 2022 20:51:41 GMT
Thanks Admin - I was just about to reply likewise. Skid, when asking us for our thoughts on a stamp please make sure that you present to us a scan of the stamp in question (1 stamp at a time) and crop away all of the extraneous empty space (like the black background in yours above) so that we have a very clear image of just the stamp (with a little black border!). Admin has blown up your image but it has lost its resolution so when you scan the item make sure that it is done at a high resolution - 600-1200 DPI. I have also produced an image from yours here:   It is still a bit hard to tell so perhaps you could produce a much clearer scan for us to take a better look at this for comment. Initial looks it doesn't appear to be an overlap. Maybe it is an internal roulette - maybe it has had a margin added. Too difficult to tell at this stage. Dave Andrew Gould has an interesting article in The NZ Stamp collector about identifying overlaps using the "deckle edge" I wonder if this is one? |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Aug 26, 2022 3:48:36 GMT
I guess it depends on 2 things at least with that question.
Is it definitely a 'deckle edge' on that top margin? and what sheet position does the stamp plate to?
According to Odenweller the foolscap sheets were too small to cover the entire plate, so Richardson used a third of another sheet to complete the plate coverage.
The sheets had 'deckled edges' and if the stamp has a deckled edge, but is from the middle of the plate, then it must be an overlap example, even if it doesn't exhibit any other sign of being an overlap.
So, is that a 'deckled' top edge to your stamp? and where on the sheet does that stamp plate to?
Where are the experts when you need one? :-)
Dave
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gc
Member
Posts: 289
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Post by gc on Aug 26, 2022 6:39:49 GMT
Possibly rebacked with margins added is my pick.
But again without seeing it in person, it just a wide guess.
Cheers Grant
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Aug 26, 2022 22:30:38 GMT
If it is 'rebacked' and has margins added then why not go all in and repair that top left corner too?
Seems odd to have gone to great efforts to have skilfully repaired the majority of it but not that corner!
Dave
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gc
Member
Posts: 289
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Post by gc on Sept 10, 2022 21:52:00 GMT
Sorry Dave
Have been away.
Yes take your point.
Possibly I was a little hasty with margins added. Would be great to see this item in person.
Cheers Grant
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gc
Member
Posts: 289
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Post by gc on Sept 25, 2022 4:51:00 GMT
Thought I would show the two shades of the 2d Davies printed on pelure paper ( very thin paper with no watermark ) The first Ultramarine CP A2f (1), SG82 The second is Pale Ultramarine CP A2f (2), SG83 Grant   |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Sept 25, 2022 9:02:27 GMT
Very nice examples of the two shades of the 2d there Grant.
Great to see them with 4 margins too. Most of mine aren't so good but I will get them out tomorrow and scan them in.
I haven't sorted the few I have into the shades, from memory they are all quite pale (aka faded). They are not the easiest of Chalons to pick up in nice condition when on a limited budget :-)
Dave
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Sept 25, 2022 20:57:52 GMT
Here are the 5 2d 'Pelures' I have : The first one is the closest I have to SG82 Ultramarine The 2nd, 3rd and 4th ones are all SG83 Pale Ultramarine & the last one is SG92 Pale Ultramarine P13 (2 sides only)   As I said before, these are not easy to acquire in nice condition let alone any condition, and at an affordable price! Show us yours .....  Dave |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Oct 23, 2022 22:01:03 GMT
Here is SG75 mint - Davies 6d black-brown p13 from 1862-64 I got this in a small lot of Chalons earlier this year, I haven't gotten around to showing it until now. Apart from the fact that it isn't perfect (trimmed perfs rhs, small tone, small black mark lower right corner), it isnt too bad a copy for a stamp cat at £3250 in the 2022 SG catalogue. The noticeable and striking thing about this item is that it contains a large part 'original' gum - cracking and all :-) Most Chalons have had their gum washed off years ago now - to avoid the gum from destroying the stamp. And quite a few of the current gummed ones are 'regums'. I am quite pleased with this purchase - I am wondering whether I should be displaying it in my book showing the front or showing its rear! What do you think?  Dave |
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brightonpete
Departed
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On a hike at Goodrich-Loomis
Posts: 5,110 
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Post by brightonpete on Oct 24, 2022 11:59:42 GMT
I'd cut a hole in the page and place the stamp in a larger mount, so both sides are visible. That, or a clear Vario would also suit.
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Oct 25, 2022 19:29:03 GMT
Thanks for that suggestion Pete.
My collection is housed in Lighthouse Stockbooks - 64 black page ones. So I am not so sure about cutting a hole in the middle of one of the pages :-)
But perhaps a clear mount could be used for viewing both sides easily. Obvisouly the mount would need to be removed and held with tongs to view through it though.
Dave
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gc
Member
Posts: 289
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Post by gc on Oct 26, 2022 4:22:40 GMT
Hi Dave
Nice find, well done. Very elusive in Mint condition.
Grant
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iandavis56
**Member** 
Posts: 10
What I collect: France. Czech. Different types of album.
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Post by iandavis56 on Nov 30, 2022 18:05:38 GMT
I am new to TSF and new to Chalons. I have a rather small NZ collection that had no early NZ stamps but by chance I went to an auction on Saturday (in Acle, Norfolk, UK) and came away with several NZ collections and pages including one album with this small set of Chalons. The album also contained three more recent stamps so I have arranged them simply on a card. Apologies for the poor quality. Now to try and identify them.  |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Dec 1, 2022 4:21:36 GMT
Hi iandavis56Well done for posting these Chalons. The 3 modern ones are from the 1980 Anniversaries Set. The 1st one looks the most promising - the 1d dull orange imperf. (with the nice CDS cancel). Does it have a wmk? Can you post a nice clear image (scanned image is best) of it front and back please? The others look to be the fairly common Davies prints from 1864-1871. Can you check the perforations on these please and also check for wmk. The commoner Davies perforated ones are p12½ and have a large star wmk. I look forward to seeing your reply. Dave |
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iandavis56
**Member**
Posts: 10
What I collect: France. Czech. Different types of album.
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Post by iandavis56 on Dec 2, 2022 1:32:56 GMT
Hi iandavis56 Well done for posting these Chalons. The 3 modern ones are from the 1980 Anniversaries Set. The 1st one looks the most promising - the 1d dull orange imperf. (with the nice CDS cancel). Does it have a wmk? Can you post a nice clear image (scanned image is best) of it front and back please? The others look to be the fairly common Davies prints from 1864-1871. Can you check the perforations on these please and also check for wmk. The commoner Davies perforated ones are p12½ and have a large star wmk. I look forward to seeing your reply. Dave Hi DKThanks for the information. It was difficult to make out a watermark on the 1d imperf but I attempted some better images   I will measure perforations and look for watermarks on the others next |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Dec 3, 2022 19:46:19 GMT
Thanks for the better pics iandavis56 (a scanner does produce the best pictures for review going forward). I was hoping that this stamp was going to be a 'no wmk' Chalon and therefore would be an SG8 - 1858 Richardson. The first picture you showed of the group was a good reflection of the dull orange shade, but the 2nd image is a bit darker & deeper so I am not so sure. If it were definitely a 'no wmk' copy then that's what it would be. But there is a possibility that it has a wmk. My attached image below shows where I think I 'may' see one. Can you confirm this? Your statement above " It was difficult to make out a watermark on the 1d imperf" doesn't tell me if there is or isn't a wmk observed. It is difficult to see if it does have one! If it 'does' have the large star wmk then it will be from the 1862-64 'Davies' printings SG33/34 orange-vermillion or vermillion. It is always nice to see a CDS on the Chalons. This type first came out in 1862 so fits in with the 'Davies' imperf period but could also have appeared on late 'Richardsons'. The first letter of the town name is visible - 'D' - so perhaps Dargaville (only a guess tho'). Dave  |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Dec 3, 2022 20:09:10 GMT
Just for comparison here below are 3 copies of the 1d imperf. First 2 are shades of SG8 - no wmk 'Richardsons' 3rd one is SG33/34 - Davies 'large star' wmk. It is very apparant that the 'Richardsons' are of much finer quality in detail and paper used. The 'large star' paper was not liked by 'Richardson' and he refused to use it. Davies on the other hand was employed directly by the Govt Printer and did as he was told. He therefore had to use the supplied 'large star' paper. His printings are not usually as good as Richardsons (as can be seen). On the balance of things known to date, I believe that your copy is a Davies SG33/34 (shade dependent of course). Dave   |
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iandavis56
**Member**
Posts: 10
What I collect: France. Czech. Different types of album.
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Post by iandavis56 on Dec 8, 2022 9:53:26 GMT
Hi DK. I very much appreciate the detailed discussion of what this stamp could be and the differences between the two printers. Having seen your overlay image (and looked again in SG) I now know the size of the watermark and can say it does not have one. Unfortunately I cannot currently take any more photos because I'm away from home for 10 days (at our house near Poitiers, France where I hope to acquire some interesting 1930s material). The two recent images were taken awkwardly with a phone and I now plan to take your advice and buy a flat scanner. Possibly a Canon but I will read through the forum for advice on which models do well Thanks again Ian |
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Post by nbstamper on Jan 4, 2023 16:57:14 GMT
 Just in; this nice copy of SG 41. |
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,543
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jan 5, 2023 4:34:19 GMT
Nice one nbstamper!
4 margins and a postmark leaving the Queen's portrait (face) clear is the way to go with these.
Well done :-)
Dave
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