DK
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Posts: 1,535
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 10, 2024 1:14:55 GMT
And while looking for more info on the PB '10' & '12' I was enquiring about above, I found this in the ' New Zealand Stamp Collector - 1919 - 2019' :     Dave |
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xacs
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Posts: 92
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Post by xacs on Apr 10, 2024 1:29:50 GMT
Can't definitively confirm its status as pelure but certainly looks right. Not unknown for no wmk richardson's to be thinned down to look like pelure but usually colour isn't right.
Still this can be changed too. I did see that Mowbray's last Public Auction had a similar 2d pelure with what looks like PB12. Sale 44, Lot 333.
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DK
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Posts: 1,535
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 10, 2024 1:49:58 GMT
First, a quite nice & respectable SG119 4d Rose mint (they described it as 'regummed')! How do you feel about a mint stamp being 'regummed'? Does it put you off it? Unused are perfectly acceptable so it could be soaked I guess, not that I am going to do that! Dave No problems with the regumming - some can supposedly crack and take the paper with them so they preach caution and often recommend soaking - but you know that. Looks great. I have 2 stamps to compare here pertaining to this subject of the gum! 1st is a Davies p13 6d SG75 with its original 'cracked' gum and the 2nd is the SG119 4d rose with 'regum'!   Anyone have a preference as to keeping the original gum? or the 'regum'? Is unused preferable? I certainly agree that the 'original' gum looks like it will damage the stamp ultimately - but the 'regum' looks ok to me 'as is'. Dave |
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DK
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Posts: 1,535
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 10, 2024 1:56:10 GMT
Can't definitively confirm its status as pelure but certainly looks right. Not unknown for no wmk richardson's to be thinned down to look like pelure but usually colour isn't right. Still this can be changed too. I did see that Mowbray's last Public Auction had a similar 2d pelure with what looks like PB12. Sale 44, Lot 333. I'd be prepared to wager it IS 'Pelure' SG82 / 83 - but stranger things DO happen!   lol Dave |
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DK
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Posts: 1,535
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 10, 2024 3:10:11 GMT
Well, Clayton proved above that the PB '12' does exist during the Davies period with that 2d 'Pelure' from 1862-63. So I went back looking thru' my books at the Davies period - and taking a very slow, and close look, found a rather worn PB '12' on an SG45 1/- yellow-green imperf. of the 1862-64 time period.    I hadn't noticed this one at first, probably as it stood upright in my book it wasn't so obvious.  Dave |
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xacs
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Posts: 92
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Post by xacs on Apr 10, 2024 4:30:06 GMT
Interesting, just perusing the Trademe and as I had it on my mind I happened to spot another PB 12. Also on 2d pelure. Coincidence? Would be interesting to know what proportion of 2d pelure stamps are cancelled with PB12.  |
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DK
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Posts: 1,535
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 10, 2024 4:56:07 GMT
Yes, Interesting thought that. Did Wanganui get a good allocation of the 2d 'Pelure' paper printing when they ordered more stock? Seems they did! Here are the two together :  The one on Trademe currently, the left hand one above, is very pale, the printing in ultramarine has almost disappeared! That is the eventual end for these printings ultimately! Both are SG83 - the right hand one the 'usual' pale ultramarine - compared to the very, very pale ultramarine to the left. I only have 4-5 of them so will go and take a look at the cancels on them. Dave |
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DK
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Posts: 1,535
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 10, 2024 5:08:16 GMT
Genius! Of the five 2d 'Pelures' I have, this one is cancelled with the PB12.  Wanganui must have received a good allocation of these then - some time in the late 1862 - 1863 period. Here are the five 2d 'Pelures' I have, the p13 with the obligatory 'DUNEDIN' obliterator cancel :  Dave |
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DK
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Posts: 1,535
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 10, 2024 5:16:44 GMT
Can't definitively confirm its status as pelure but certainly looks right. Not unknown for no wmk richardson's to be thinned down to look like pelure but usually colour isn't right. Still this can be changed too. I did see that Mowbray's last Public Auction had a similar 2d pelure with what looks like PB12. Sale 44, Lot 333. Here it is for posterity :  Dave |
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gc
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Posts: 289
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Post by gc on Apr 10, 2024 7:14:05 GMT
Thanks Grant. Not really, I saw it had a Wellington '070' duplex cancel when I was bidding but haven't had a good look until now. Here it is close up:  It shows the Wellington 070 duplex, 3 strikes, but no really clear strike of the obliterator portion so cannot rule on damage to that. The CDS side is a bit clearer. A date of NO 12 71 - and the F time index letter. The CDS does look a little 'squeezed' in but not so that it touches the W of Wellington as it does more so later on. So, what is clear is that the time indica is there by 12 November 1871 ! Which means that the time indica was put there sometime between August 8th 1871 and November 12th 1871. Therefore, the damage to the duplex was probably started at this time, although not proven conclusively yet, and became progressively worse over time. Dave Hi Dave How about this cover with possibly no wear. Cheers Grant  |
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 10, 2024 7:58:06 GMT
Which means that the time indica was put there sometime between August 8th 1871 and November 12th 1871. Hi Dave How about this cover with possibly no wear. Cheers Grant Well, you have narrowed the dates of the damage occurring again then Grant. The date on this 'undamaged' 070 is AU 28 71.  So we can now say that - The time indica was put there sometime between August 28th 1871 and November 12th 1871. And the damage probably began around the same time as well. NB: I note that the addressee is yet again Mr James Lyon Esq. ! Dave |
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Post by redkiwi on Apr 10, 2024 12:35:36 GMT
All this talk of interesting cancels on Chalons encouraged me to go back through my stock book to see what I had not previously noted. Here are three that stood out to me:  I'm not a specialist on Chalons, but I believe these are, from left to right (using the classifications in PSoNZ vol VII):1. A FFA 1.4 used at Tauranga, AP 1? 1865. Apparently this style of cancel was used in seven known POs in the early to mid 1860s (and in Howick into the late 1870s). I'd be interested to hear if anyone has earliest know use info for this cancel.2. A FFA 3.2 from the Southland series, of which vol. VII says "only a small number of examples are recorded." This strike, from 8 Sep 1864, is likely fairly early use in Southland, but perhaps others have info?Enhanced image:
3. An example of FFS6 from Kowai. I can't make out the year, regrettably. This type of cancel was only used in a few known POs (5 according to PSoNZ VII) from about 1866 through to the early 1870s. RK |
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Post by redkiwi on Apr 10, 2024 13:36:53 GMT
All this talk of interesting cancels on Chalons encouraged me to go back through my stock book to see what I had not previously noted. Here are three that stood out to me:
I'm not a specialist on Chalons, but I believe these are, from left to right (using the classifications in PSoNZ vol VII):
1. A FFA 1.4 used at Tauranga, AP 1? 1865. Apparently this style of cancel was used in seven known POs in the early to mid 1860s (and in Howick into the late 1870s). I'd be interested to hear if anyone has earliest know use info for this cancel.
2. A FFA 3.2 from the Southland series, of which vol. VII says "only a small number of examples are recorded." This strike, from 1864, is likely fairly early use in Southland, but perhaps others have info?
3. An example of FFS6 from Kowai. I can't make out the year, regrettably. This type of cancel was only used in a few known POs (5 according to PSoNZ VII) from about 1866 through to the early 1870s.
RK
Apparently the earliest recorded strike of a FFA3.2 cancel is from 27 Jan 1863 in Klaus Møller's Chalon survey (or 4 Feb 63 in PSoNZ), from Dunstan. |
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gc
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Posts: 289
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Post by gc on Apr 10, 2024 18:04:12 GMT
Hi Dave How about this cover with possibly no wear. Cheers Grant Well, you have narrowed the dates of the damage occurring again then Grant. The date on this 'undamaged' 070 is AU 28 71. So we can now say that - The time indica was put there sometime between August 28th 1871 and November 12th 1871. And the damage probably began around the same time as well. NB: I note that the addressee is yet again Mr James Lyon Esq. ! Dave Getting closer Dave  |
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 10, 2024 20:41:10 GMT
Well done Grant.  OC 8 71 - Time Indica on the date stamp part now - No real, apparent, damage to the date stamp side yet. Cannot tell with the obliterator side in that picture! So we can now say that - The time indica was put there sometime between August 28th 1871 and October 8th 1871. The damage probably began around the same time as well, but not obviously there yet with that cover! Dave |
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DK
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Posts: 1,535
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 10, 2024 20:51:51 GMT
3. An example of FFS6 from Kowai. I can't make out the year, regrettably. This type of cancel was only used in a few known POs (5 according to PSoNZ VII) from about 1866 through to the early 1870s. Nice cancels there Klem. Great postal history and social history too. Rabbit holes await you The 6d was one of the values whose color was changed in the 2nd half of 1871 - from brown to blue. The year part of the date starts with a '7' so must be either 1870 or 1871 on the balance of averages. The 2nd number has a curved top - so not a '1' or a '4'. It must be either '0' or '2' or '3'. As the color change took place in 1871 I would favor it being '0'. So in my humble opinion the date on your 6d brown Chalon from Kowai is SE 30 70 Dave |
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DK
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Posts: 1,535
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 10, 2024 20:58:22 GMT
I showed my copy of the 'Kowai' cancel on page 1 of this thread ! Also dated 1870!  Dave |
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DK
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Posts: 1,535
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 10, 2024 21:35:55 GMT
Funny! I was looking thru' my books for some interesting cancels to share and came across another Kowai CDS. Again, 1870! OC 14 70  Dave |
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 10, 2024 21:38:30 GMT
A few more ...  Dave |
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DK
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Posts: 1,535
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 10, 2024 21:53:06 GMT
A couple of Military Post Office cancels of 1863 & 64.  Drury - SG41 6d black brown - dated Jan 2 63 Tauranga - SG97 1d vermillion NZ wmk - dated OC 26 1864 By the by: The Waikato Wars spilled over into the Bay of Plenty as the British pursued the local Maori forces to Tauranga in 1864. Two main battles took place within a couple of KMs of where I currently live. The first at Gate Pa - Pukehinahina. A 'win' for the Maori if numbers killed and wounded taken into account. However, Maori abandoned their Pa site there and fell back towards Rotorua a few Km's down the road at a place referred to as 'Te Henga'. Te Henga is literally a few hundred metres down the road from my house! The second at Te HengaHere, the British ambushed the Maori while they were constructing their next defensive position, and were routed. This was 1864. So my stamp is from just after the battles. Klem, your one is from the year after these famous (in NZ) battles took place. The British General in charge of the British Forces was a Gen. Cameron. The main road thru' Tauranga is to this day named 'Cameron Rd' Dave |
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Post by redkiwi on Apr 11, 2024 6:57:42 GMT
3. An example of FFS6 from Kowai. I can't make out the year, regrettably. This type of cancel was only used in a few known POs (5 according to PSoNZ VII) from about 1866 through to the early 1870s. Nice cancels there Klem. Great postal history and social history too. Rabbit holes await you The 6d was one of the values whose color was changed in the 2nd half of 1871 - from brown to blue. The year part of the date starts with a '7' so must be either 1870 or 1871 on the balance of averages. The 2nd number has a curved top - so not a '1' or a '4'. It must be either '0' or '2' or '3'. As the color change took place in 1871 I would favor it being '0'. So in my humble opinion the date on your 6d brown Chalon from Kowai is SE 30 70Dave That seems like a good assessment, Dave. Helpful to have your other examples to compare with, which strengthens the analysis. Apparently Kowai was an important PO at this time, hence the multiple surviving examples. And they did nice, clear cancels. Subsequently became Liethfield, and with some interesting oblit cancels, as shown in the FSF thread. Almost worth a small study on its own. |
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xacs
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Posts: 92
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Post by xacs on Apr 11, 2024 8:30:37 GMT
While on interesting cancels I will throw one in the mix as it is something of an enigma. Interesting not so much as a nice cancel that is recognisable but rather as one unidentified and difficult to define. Maybe some of our local experts have seen something similar or have some insight. Unfortunately not the tidiest example, a dirty surface and the darker spots appear to be something quite different to the "postmark". Perhaps spatters of ink, wax or for the more mysterious... b l o o d.I've had it under 50x microscope and adjusted scans to all sorts of filters and the nearest I can come to does not match anything I have found yet, so unless it is a foreign mark??? Nearest I can say it consists of a circle 12.5mm diameter surmounted by a pentagonal shape (perhaps a crown). Within this there is a letter or symbol. I did wonder if perhaps it was a seal (wax remnants?) as I have seen seals used to cancel some early issues for other countries but none for NZ. Thoughts welcome. 
Clayton |
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DK
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Posts: 1,535
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 11, 2024 9:00:18 GMT
Hi Clayton
I looked at your item above, and immediately thought of a 'Registered' mark, with a possible 'Crown' above it.
Possibly an 'R' in a circle ? below, with a 'Crown' above.
I will look more into it tomorrow and have a dig around some books - but initial thoughts I think it is a 'Registered' marking.
Dave
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DK
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Posts: 1,535
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 11, 2024 9:08:33 GMT
I was just looking at those Kowai CDS cancels on the three Chalons above, and just noticed a break in the CDS - it is consistent with all 3, so must be a genuine break in the 'A' Class cancellation device itself.  Dave |
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Post by redkiwi on Apr 11, 2024 14:55:17 GMT
I was just looking at those Kowai CDS cancels on the three Chalons above, and just noticed a break in the CDS - it is consistent with all 3, so must be a genuine break in the 'A' Class cancellation device itself. Dave A nice looking group. Good spot on the frame break. |
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DK
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Posts: 1,535
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 11, 2024 22:20:19 GMT
Hi Clayton I looked at your item above, and immediately thought of a 'Registered' mark, with a possible 'Crown' above it. Possibly an ' R' in a circle ? below, with a ' Crown' above. I will look more into it tomorrow and have a dig around some books - but initial thoughts I think it is a 'Registered' marking. Nothing substantive found yet re this unidentified cancel. It doesnt look like an NZ type from the books I have referred to so far. So perhaps is foreign! Australian State or UK perhaps, particularly as it seems to have a 'Crown' there!! In the meantime, here is a Retro Reveal negative of it.  Dave |
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 11, 2024 22:35:11 GMT
The cancel is similar to this 'FREE' marking from GB.  Obviously the wording in the center will be different to this but the ring & Crown are similar. Could be a 'Seal' too. Further research is needed ..... Dave |
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DK
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Posts: 1,535
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Apr 11, 2024 23:01:57 GMT
Well, well, well I went looking on the GB Philatelic Society website on the hope it may have been a British cancel - with it having the Crown and all ! Found this: The History of the Postmarks of the British Isles from 1840 to 1876
On its page 20, at the bottom of the page is this:  Used on Redirected Letters by the Circulation Office I think we have a Winner!! lol Dave |
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gc
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Posts: 289
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Post by gc on Apr 12, 2024 6:59:28 GMT
Well, well, well I went looking on the GB Philatelic Society website on the hope it may have been a British cancel - with it having the Crown and all ! Found this: The History of the Postmarks of the British Isles from 1840 to 1876
On its page 20, at the bottom of the page is this: Used on Redirected Letters by the Circulation Office I think we have a Winner!! lol Dave Brilliant Dave Extremely well researched |
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xacs
Member
Posts: 92
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Post by xacs on Apr 12, 2024 8:57:21 GMT
Well, well, well I went looking on the GB Philatelic Society website on the hope it may have been a British cancel - with it having the Crown and all ! Found this: The History of the Postmarks of the British Isles from 1840 to 1876
On its page 20, at the bottom of the page is this: Used on Redirected Letters by the Circulation Office I think we have a Winner!! lol Dave That is certainly the closest I have seen thus far! Cheers! I didn't think to look into the British postmarks, mainly because of lack of reference material but of course there is so much more available online these days. I imagine like most of these sort of cancels there would have been some variation at least as far as size and maybe detail of crown. Would be good if the cancel I have was clearer as form of crown looks different but I will definitely follow this line. Might search out some examples of actual cancels on cover. Thanks, always good to revisit some old material. Clayton |
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lol
