DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 23, 2024 8:30:06 GMT
I believe it is COROMANDEL Klem. Here is the image turned 180 to see it better :  Dave |
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DK
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Posts: 1,532
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 23, 2024 8:39:17 GMT
Great set Dave, well done. I wonder if we will ever know if "GB" is somebodies' initials or Governors Bay ( as some have suggested ). Here is my full receipt again. Grant  Hey Grant While looking for the 'Specimen' article for Philip I came across this article I had taken a copy of from Gerald Ellotts website before it became unresponsive. I have converted it to picture files from PDF : NB I see your receipt in there too. I wonder if the receipt had to be taken to the Post Office to have the Stamp Duty applied to that receipt?      I think I have a 2d SSF with a manuscript GB in my books. I will see if I can find it tomorrow. I always believed that GB stood for Governors Bay. Perhaps I was influenced by the above article!! Dave |
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DK
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Posts: 1,532
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 23, 2024 8:48:38 GMT
Specimen overprints. Grant and I are accumulating images of specimen overprints on chalons with the aim of evaluating the relative scarcity of the different types on the various denominations and printings. The 3 main types are shown below, known as type A, B and C If anyone has examples they would be willing to share or knows anyone that may be able to help it would be much appreciated. Philip Hey Philip Well I found that article by Gerald Ellott. I had taken a copy of it luckily  Here are the relevant pages (in JPG format). I have the PDF if you'd like a copy. I hope it is of some use to you.   (click on the image to enlarge it) Dave |
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redkiwi
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Post by redkiwi on May 23, 2024 8:50:55 GMT
I just had a quick look at Klaus's exhibit and he shows three examples:  Not very clear images as this is a snip from a PDF, but I'm sure if you are interested he would share further information. |
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Post by tundrawolf on May 23, 2024 18:31:22 GMT
Thanks Dave and Klem I have all of those, currently sitting at 178 examples, but please keep showing anything you come across.
Philip
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on May 23, 2024 19:56:31 GMT
Here is one I have   |
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Post by tundrawolf on May 23, 2024 22:23:42 GMT
Thanks Mark, type C in blue is scarce. Only the 4th example we have and the only one on a reprint.
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skid
Member
Posts: 394
What I collect: NZ Chalons, 1800's NZ, Thames Valley NZ, and other interesting NZ stamps
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Post by skid on May 23, 2024 22:51:02 GMT
Nice to hear  It is not very clear. Any chance it is a fake? |
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DK
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Posts: 1,532
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 23, 2024 23:06:54 GMT
Thanks Mark, type C in blue is scarce. Only the 4th example we have and the only one on a reprint. Nice one Mark. It certainly looks genuine to me at first glance, but Philip will know better on these. How did you come about this one? I ask as I love hearing stories of eBay finds! Cheers Dave |
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DK
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Posts: 1,532
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 24, 2024 0:03:40 GMT
I think I have a 2d SSF with a manuscript GB in my books. I will see if I can find it tomorrow. I found it, took me a while to find it tho' Seeing it again I am not so sure it is 'GB' but perhaps 'GR' or 'CB' ? Not sure. What do others think it might be?  Dave |
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neilmac
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Thanks for having me - glad to be here. Looking forward to learning more in 2024! Cheers!
Posts: 242
What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on May 27, 2024 4:36:23 GMT
Hi Philip I don't believe I have any, I will double check that tomorrow though! So my first thought to assist was to think of Gerald Ellotts website, I remembered that he had an article on this subject, unfortunately that website is not found any longer! I will check my records shortly to see if I took a copy of it years ago, I seem to recall that I did, but I could be wrong. I need to check that. Other than that my thoughts go out to the pre-eminent Chalon collectors of the RPSNZ - people like Andrew Gould, Klaus Moller, gc & even Neil, neilmac , here on this forum. I will get back to you with Geralds article on these 'Specimen' overprints when/if I can track it down :-) Dave Hi Phillip, Dave, I have the following images from an auction I lost! But they were reported by the auctioneer (Mowbray) as an unrecorded ovpt style - serif 21 x 3mm letters. Certainly larger letters than I had seen before.    I have a vertical stamped on 4d yellow and a horizontal with single quotation marks on the 1/- green if of any interest. These are only photos - if you'd like a high quality scan please let me know.  I am assuming that you are not interested in the presentation specimen's as below?  |
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neilmac
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Thanks for having me - glad to be here. Looking forward to learning more in 2024! Cheers!
Posts: 242
What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on May 27, 2024 6:56:43 GMT
I just had a quick look at Klaus's exhibit and he shows three examples: Not very clear images as this is a snip from a PDF, but I'm sure if you are interested he would share further information. These are the ones I bought at the ACS auction. Images posted on this site but just photos. Can do scans if required. cheers, Neil |
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DK
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Posts: 1,532
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 27, 2024 8:25:38 GMT
I have the following images from an auction I lost! But they were reported by the auctioneer (Mowbray) as an unrecorded ovpt style - serif 21 x 3mm letters. Certainly larger letters than I had seen before. I shall leave for Philip to comment on these ones Neil. This is a beautiful example of the 1/- green. Very well centered for these indeed. Dave |
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DK
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Posts: 1,532
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on May 27, 2024 21:11:57 GMT
Just got this 1d brown in. I bought it for its large top margin and nice centering!  and with a couple of friends .....  Dave |
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Post by tundrawolf on May 28, 2024 9:07:59 GMT
Re Specimens. Mark, I don't think there is much chance of your example being faked. The relative scarcity of the different types has not been looked at previously so nothing to be gained.
Neil, thank you for the images of the unrecorded overprint from the Mowbray sale, much better detail than what I already have. An interesting group and as far as I know unique. Unlikely to have been overprinted in New Zealand given the 3d is perf 13 in Brown-lilac, but that's only my option. I'll be trying to learn more. All I can say is they were once owned by Marcel Stanley then sold for $1700AU plus commission in the Bernard Manning sale in 2004 and now sold for $5250 plus commission in the Mowbray sale.
Scans of the specimens that you bought in the ACS sale would be appreciated. I only have poor images of those.
Keep them coming.
Philip
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neilmac
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Thanks for having me - glad to be here. Looking forward to learning more in 2024! Cheers!
Posts: 242
What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on May 29, 2024 3:15:54 GMT
Re Specimens. Mark, I don't think there is much chance of your example being faked. The relative scarcity of the different types has not been looked at previously so nothing to be gained. Neil, thank you for the images of the unrecorded overprint from the Mowbray sale, much better detail than what I already have. An interesting group and as far as I know unique. Unlikely to have been overprinted in New Zealand given the 3d is perf 13 in Brown-lilac, but that's only my option. I'll be trying to learn more. All I can say is they were once owned by Marcel Stanley then sold for $1700AU plus commission in the Bernard Manning sale in 2004 and now sold for $5250 plus commission in the Mowbray sale. Scans of the specimens that you bought in the ACS sale would be appreciated. I only have poor images of those. Keep them coming. Philip Here you go.  |
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neilmac
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Thanks for having me - glad to be here. Looking forward to learning more in 2024! Cheers!
Posts: 242
What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on May 31, 2024 3:12:38 GMT
Re Specimens. Mark, I don't think there is much chance of your example being faked. The relative scarcity of the different types has not been looked at previously so nothing to be gained. Neil, thank you for the images of the unrecorded overprint from the Mowbray sale, much better detail than what I already have. An interesting group and as far as I know unique. Unlikely to have been overprinted in New Zealand given the 3d is perf 13 in Brown-lilac, but that's only my option. I'll be trying to learn more. All I can say is they were once owned by Marcel Stanley then sold for $1700AU plus commission in the Bernard Manning sale in 2004 and now sold for $5250 plus commission in the Mowbray sale. Scans of the specimens that you bought in the ACS sale would be appreciated. I only have poor images of those. Keep them coming. Philip Hi Phillip, I can further offer that the unique specimen stamps were lot 1050 of the Christies Robson Lowe auction of New Zealand The Chalon Issues 11 October 1989 with a valuation of £850, but did not appear to sell at auction as I have the auction results as well. Relevant images from that auction below if you don't already have them. Regards, Neil     |
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DK
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Posts: 1,532
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jun 2, 2024 22:12:30 GMT
Wow. Wouldn't you just love to own that lot!
Fantastic grouping.
The pricing back then was something too. Philately was still keenly followed then, as the prices indicate!
Nice posting Neil.
Dave
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DK
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Posts: 1,532
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jun 3, 2024 0:59:43 GMT
neilmac has inspired me to group my 1865 4d Rose's together - for a group photo! Here are 28 examples I have scattered around my books. The top one is my only unused copy, next line has the 2 listed shades, Rose & Deep Rose and the rest are just a used bunch of 4d's. Some dated, others with obliterators, some with PB's. NB Only 120,000 of these were printed in June 1865. It's fun to look for early dated examples, I believe my earliest in this lot is dated JY 65 (1st one on the bottom row).  Dave
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Post by tundrawolf on Jun 3, 2024 7:32:36 GMT
Impressive display Dave, are you aiming to corner the market!!
Neil, thanks for the further information and scans. I had the images, at lower resolution, but didn't know what sale they came from.
Philip
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DK
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Posts: 1,532
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jun 3, 2024 7:50:24 GMT
Haha, if only!
Not really, I just seem to have held on to a few.
I used to have a used pair long ago, now I don't have a multiple so would love another one, even a pair!
I also don't have a cover with one on, so that is definitely on my 'hit list'.
Then I would still like a few more unused ones!
So still plenty to look out for .... we'll see.
Dave
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neilmac
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Thanks for having me - glad to be here. Looking forward to learning more in 2024! Cheers!
Posts: 242
What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on Jun 3, 2024 22:57:50 GMT
neilmac has inspired me to group my 1865 4d Rose's together - for a group photo! Here are 28 examples I have scattered around my books. The top one is my only unused copy, next line has the 2 listed shades, Rose & Deep Rose and the rest are just a used bunch of 4d's. Some dated, others with obliterators, some with PB's. NB Only 120,000 of these were printed in June 1865. It's fun to look for early dated examples, I believe my earliest in this lot is dated JY 65 (1st one on the bottom row). Dave Very nice lot that Dave! I think I have only three with one unused. I do collect the 4d Yellows though (120 + 139) and have 30 odd different cancellations and a few mint - but I note with real interest your '14' obliterator (2) because chances are high if the 4d Rose exists then the 4d Yellow will too, and I haven't ever seen one. Out of interest I am studying the 4d Yellow and looking for evidence of Obliterators '1', '3', '10, '12', '13'(good luck with that one!  ), '14', '15' or '17'. The '17' exists I believe as I have a very faint '7' that is not centred in the obliterator so I think it's around. If anyone has any of these and they don't 'need' them let me know  - Gladly take them off your hands. In this group I'm also after anything on piece and covers and finally the Otahuhu cancellation (missed the recent one at Klaus' auction). When I've got time I'll assemble them like you have Dave and post an image. Cheers, Neil |
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DK
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Posts: 1,532
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jun 3, 2024 23:14:58 GMT
but I note with real interest your '14' obliterator (2) because chances are high if the 4d Rose exists then the 4d Yellow will too, and I haven't ever seen one. You mean the 1st two here :  The last one above is an Otago cancel O14 of Tokomairiro (Milton)Dave |
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DK
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Posts: 1,532
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jun 3, 2024 23:47:45 GMT
Out of interest I am studying the 4d Yellow and looking for evidence of Obliterators '1', '3', '10, '12', '13'(good luck with that one! ), '14', '15' or '17'. The '17' exists I believe as I have a very faint '7' that is not centred in the obliterator so I think it's around. I have these ones only Neil, that have PB obliterator cancels. The top 3 are inconclusive although the 1st and the 3rd one on the top row 'may' be a 14! I will have to use Retro Reveal on them. The bottom row are self-evident - 5, 8, 9 & 18  Dave |
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DK
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Posts: 1,532
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jun 4, 2024 0:27:07 GMT
The 3rd one on the top row of the above 4d yellow does in fact appear to be a PB '14'. As Retro Reveal wasn't available, I used a free downloadable app called 'Image Sleuth' v1.2.0  I was also reading the 'New Zealand Stamp Collector' 100 Year anniversary edition and noted that they say this about the following PB obliterators : PB 1 Auckland - "The PB '1' obliterators were then used extensively at the Auckland Post Office until early 1865, at first exclusively and for the last three years in parallel with other cancelling devices. The use of these two obliterators then stopped abruptly, presumably because they had become badly worn. Collins and Watts suggested that this wear might have occurred because they were not only used to cancel stamps but also to seal mailbags".
PB 10 Wellington - "The one with the smaller numerals (10A) is found only on London and Richardson prints, while the one with the larger numerals (10B) continued to be used at Wellington until 1862-63, for the last two or three years concurrently with PB '7' until it was re-allocated to Waikanae. The short life of obliterator 10A at Wellington is probably due to damage suffered by the '0' in the numeral around 1857-58. The remainder of the '0' was therefore removed completely. This obliterator was thereafter used at the 'Hutt' post office".The above should account for the lack of PB '1' & PB '10' cancels on the 4d yellow at least! The 4d yellow didn't start to be used until at least late 1865, but mainly from 1866 on. Dave |
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neilmac
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Thanks for having me - glad to be here. Looking forward to learning more in 2024! Cheers!
Posts: 242
What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on Jun 4, 2024 3:11:10 GMT
The 3rd one on the top row of the above 4d yellow does in fact appear to be a PB '14'. As Retro Reveal wasn't available, I used a free downloadable app called 'Image Sleuth' v1.2.0 I was also reading the 'New Zealand Stamp Collector' 100 Year anniversary edition and noted that they say this about the following PB obliterators : PB 1 Auckland - "The PB '1' obliterators were then used extensively at the Auckland Post Office until early 1865, at first exclusively and for the last three years in parallel with other cancelling devices. The use of these two obliterators then stopped abruptly, presumably because they had become badly worn. Collins and Watts suggested that this wear might have occurred because they were not only used to cancel stamps but also to seal mailbags".
PB 10 Wellington - "The one with the smaller numerals (10A) is found only on London and Richardson prints, while the one with the larger numerals (10B) continued to be used at Wellington until 1862-63, for the last two or three years concurrently with PB '7' until it was re-allocated to Waikanae. The short life of obliterator 10A at Wellington is probably due to damage suffered by the '0' in the numeral around 1857-58. The remainder of the '0' was therefore removed completely. This obliterator was thereafter used at the 'Hutt' post office".The above should account for the lack of PB '1' & PB '10' cancels on the 4d yellow at least! The 4d yellow didn't start to be used until at least late 1865, but mainly from 1866 on. Dave Thanks heaps Dave! Yes I was familiar with the PB1 & 10 life cycles, but keep hanging on a thread something may one day reveal itself! Love the reveal on the postmarks! That's great detective work. I'll have a look at the software later in the week. Now I know a PB 14 exists I am encouraged! Love a clear one like your 4d rose copies - outstanding. Thanks again, Neil |
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DK
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Posts: 1,532
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jun 4, 2024 3:47:26 GMT
While being away for the past hour or so I was reading the New Zealand Stamp Collector 100 Anniversary copy through and found another couple of bits that may help with your quest re the 4d yellow. Here are the results of a census the RPSNZ did regarding dated examples of Chalons and the numbers recorded for each PB obliterator and its time in use. You will see by this table that some PB numbers taper off in use as the years go by!  And a page (50) from the publication which shows some 4d yellow examples with PB oblits, includes some PB '14's :  Dave |
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neilmac
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Thanks for having me - glad to be here. Looking forward to learning more in 2024! Cheers!
Posts: 242
What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on Jun 5, 2024 4:28:33 GMT
While being away for the past hour or so I was reading the New Zealand Stamp Collector 100 Anniversary copy through and found another couple of bits that may help with your quest re the 4d yellow. Here are the results of a census the RPSNZ did regarding dated examples of Chalons and the numbers recorded for each PB obliterator and its time in use. You will see by this table that some PB numbers taper off in use as the years go by! And a page (50) from the publication which shows some 4d yellow examples with PB oblits, includes some PB '14's : Dave Thanks again Dave, Saw the '14' and also the '3' and '15'. Interestingly I have a '4' and '11' not shown by the author. This is good stuff. I guess Yoda would say "Continue to look I will". Thanks, Neil |
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neilmac
Member
Thanks for having me - glad to be here. Looking forward to learning more in 2024! Cheers!
Posts: 242
What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on Jun 5, 2024 4:48:05 GMT
The 3rd one on the top row of the above 4d yellow does in fact appear to be a PB '14'. As Retro Reveal wasn't available, I used a free downloadable app called 'Image Sleuth' v1.2.0 I was also reading the 'New Zealand Stamp Collector' 100 Year anniversary edition and noted that they say this about the following PB obliterators : PB 1 Auckland - "The PB '1' obliterators were then used extensively at the Auckland Post Office until early 1865, at first exclusively and for the last three years in parallel with other cancelling devices. The use of these two obliterators then stopped abruptly, presumably because they had become badly worn. Collins and Watts suggested that this wear might have occurred because they were not only used to cancel stamps but also to seal mailbags".
PB 10 Wellington - "The one with the smaller numerals (10A) is found only on London and Richardson prints, while the one with the larger numerals (10B) continued to be used at Wellington until 1862-63, for the last two or three years concurrently with PB '7' until it was re-allocated to Waikanae. The short life of obliterator 10A at Wellington is probably due to damage suffered by the '0' in the numeral around 1857-58. The remainder of the '0' was therefore removed completely. This obliterator was thereafter used at the 'Hutt' post office".The above should account for the lack of PB '1' & PB '10' cancels on the 4d yellow at least! The 4d yellow didn't start to be used until at least late 1865, but mainly from 1866 on. Dave Hi Dave, And just for fun - what do you think the number of this PB is? I can see the Image Sleuth getting a bit of work! It's pretty good isn't it? Neil   |
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Post by tundrawolf on Jun 5, 2024 5:28:55 GMT
What do you make of these??  |
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It is not very clear. Any chance it is a fake?
), '14', '15' or '17'. The '17' exists I believe as I have a very faint '7' that is not centred in the obliterator so I think it's around.
- Gladly take them off your hands. In this group I'm also after anything on piece and covers and finally the Otahuhu cancellation (missed the recent one at Klaus' auction). When I've got time I'll assemble them like you have Dave and post an image.