DK
Member
Posts: 1,245
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Dec 31, 2023 4:09:47 GMT
I got this Wakatipu pair out of an old stamp album containing mint 1898 Pictorials. The pages were cardboard, with many of the stamps stuck to the pages, making removal problematic. Many ended up MNG. This one survived as HM, albeit not in great condition. Anyway, what puzzles me is the two vertical columns of perforations. If it is a double perforation example, it shows up in CP as E8b (Z), p11, NWM, cat $500. The question is whether it is a genuine double perforation or has been fabricated by someone putting holes to the left of the original column. These holes are smaller than the others making it look a bit odd. Any thoughts? Nice find Grant. If both perforations measure 11 then it is a 'double perf' variety. Whether genuine or not is another matter, but looks ok to me. The perforations do look different in shape and size so a reasonable question to ask re those. The number 209a pencilled on the back had me looking through my old SG catalogues. In the current SG the 1899 no wmk 2½d blue is SG260 & the deep blue is SG260cIn the 1935 SG the 1899 no wmk 2½d blue is SG272 & the deep blue is SG273but in the 1906 SG the 1899 no wmk 2½d blue is SG209 & the deep blue is SG209a - which matches your pencilled number. It is interesting that when somebody pencilled 209a on the back they also didnt make a mention of the 'double perf' variety as well ! SG also has never mentioned a 'double perf' variety ever, either! CP does, as you mentioned, list it as a variety of the 1899-03 issue CP E8b(z) at NZ$500.00 mint Dave
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,245
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Dec 31, 2023 4:17:06 GMT
Here is my only double perf variety of that 1899-03 issue : SG 263 5d purple-brown CP E13b(z) cat NZ$300.00 used Note: The late use of an 11-bar obliterator '1' - not a PB but a slightly later locally produced one for Auckland (according to my RPSNZ vol.7) Dave
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Post by nzgrant on Jan 18, 2024 3:35:23 GMT
I'm struggling to work out the shades for the 1d Terraces, particularly deep crimson lake. I've put some of my copies into 4 rows as shown. What I can't work out is whether the classification is correct or whether the 3rd row are actually crimson and the 4th row are actually lake crimson. Rose red is easy, but the other shades are more of a continuum, gradually getting darker. Looking on the internet gets confusing as you can see with the sale examples from Classic Stamps (looks crimson to me) and Corbitts (possibly is deep crimson lake).
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,245
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jan 18, 2024 23:01:48 GMT
I don't have any certified copies of the 1d Terraces Grant, but my opinion, FWIW, is that the 2nd Terraces (Corbitts) is closest to the 'deep crimson lake' shade than the 1st one (Classic Stamps). In fact I am not sure why Classic Stamps even suggests it may be the scarcer 'deep crimson lake'! It looks nothing like it IMHO.
Dave
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neilmac
Member
Thanks for having me - glad to be here. Looking forward to learning more in 2024! Cheers!
Posts: 152
What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on Jan 26, 2024 2:52:47 GMT
I'm struggling to work out the shades for the 1d Terraces, particularly deep crimson lake. I've put some of my copies into 4 rows as shown. What I can't work out is whether the classification is correct or whether the 3rd row are actually crimson and the 4th row are actually lake crimson. Rose red is easy, but the other shades are more of a continuum, gradually getting darker. Looking on the internet gets confusing as you can see with the sale examples from Classic Stamps (looks crimson to me) and Corbitts (possibly is deep crimson lake). Hi team, I found these from the Odenweller Auction 2020. Proofs of three colours. The challenge with scans I guess is how they show up on different screens etc but worth a shot. Crimson first, deep crimson lake, then rose red. Neil
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rod222
Member
Posts: 9,912
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Jan 26, 2024 3:43:46 GMT
neilmac Quote Crimson first, deep crimson lake, then rose red. Neil Hi Neil, With respect Wow! I would have had the first two transposed The first =Crimson? certainly appears to me to have lac in the pigment.
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,245
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jan 26, 2024 7:33:04 GMT
neilmac Quote Crimson first, deep crimson lake, then rose red. Neil Hi Neil, With respect Wow! I would have had the first two transposed The first =Crimson? certainly appears to me to have lac in the pigment. Indeed. I would have said the order should be : Deep Crimson Lake, Rose Red, then Crimson. But as I say, I do not possess any with certs so difficult to know for sure until we can see some with certs. I shall take a look at the book by Dr Derek Diamond later, entitled "The 1898 Pictorial Issue of New Zealand' and see if he can shed some light on this ! Dave
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Post by redkiwi on Mar 24, 2024 13:36:35 GMT
Drawing attention to a newly discovered (or perhaps rediscovered?) flaw on the First Pictorial 9d local prints. I've managed to locate 4 copies of this flaw (and a fifth has just been found by another member). I've titled it the 'Lake Cut Flaw'. It is featured in the lastest edition of the NZSC.
If you have an example, please post an image here. I'm trying to get enough evidence to get it listed in CP.
Thanks, RK
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,245
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Mar 24, 2024 21:52:45 GMT
As already shown to redkiwi (Klem) here is my rather worn example of it. I missed it the first time around having a quick look thru' my spares books : 1903 2nd local printing. SG 314 CP E17c. wmk W7 p11 The scratch is in the correct position but there is little to no ink there anymore. It is just a 'white shadow' of where it once was. Perhaps as you stated in the article, it may have been cleaned (polished) up by the printers, or, perhaps just 'wore out' over the course of time. Dave
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,245
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Mar 24, 2024 22:00:04 GMT
PS - My copy of this flaw - above - also has the letters ‘EW’ of NEW ZEALAND from the left hand part of the selvage. This should assist in you plating this to the 1st position of whichever row it comes from.
Good luck.
Dave
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Post by redkiwi on Mar 25, 2024 8:01:49 GMT
PS - My copy of this flaw - above - also has the letters ‘EW’ of NEW ZEALAND from the left hand part of the selvage. This should assist in you plating this to the 1st position of whichever row it comes from. Good luck. Dave That is a great find, Dave. The worn printing examples are very difficult to spot unless you're looking for them. Only the 5th example I know of, and the second with a cancel. Very helpful to know the year, and the confirmation of the WM is excellent. I'm sure we'll have a plate location soon.
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Post by redkiwi on Mar 25, 2024 13:18:17 GMT
For those interested, here's what the WM on the 2nd and 3rd printings of the 9d with the 'Lake Cut Flaw' looks like from the back. The bottom portion of the letters 'EW' from the 'NEW ZEALAND' wm in the selvage appears on all four known watermarked copies of this flaw.
If anyone has information on the positioning of the selvage WMs on the First Pictorials that would help in plating this flaw, it would be appreciated.RK
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,245
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Mar 25, 2024 20:38:12 GMT
Professor Derek Diamond wrote a book about the 1898 Pictorials entitled "The 1898 Pictorial Issue of New Zealand - It's Design, Printing & Use"
On pages 119 - 125 he has a section titled "5.2 The Use of the Watermark Paper"
Basically he states there that there was a problem that arose when they wanted to print the stamps, of varying sizes, on watermarked paper.
This was resolved with the notion that they could print all of the stamps on 2 different watermarked sheet sizes.
Sheet A - Dandy Roll Type A - for the smaller stamps in the set which would be for 240 impressions in a 10 rows by 24 configuration and
Sheet B - Dandy Roll Type B - for the larger stamps in the set (including the 9d) which would be for 120 impressions in a 12 rows by 10 configuration
The watermarks in Type A were larger - and in Type B they were smaller.
He has a diagram of the Type A sheet format but not one of the Type B format, the one we need for the 9d.
So, keep a look out for any sheet of Type B that shows the rear of the sheet - and consequently the watermark layout - for the larger designs - namely the 2½d, 5d, 9d, 2/- & 5/- (not the 1½d Boer War stamp tho').
Dave
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Post by redkiwi on Mar 25, 2024 21:21:39 GMT
Professor Derek Diamond wrote a book about the 1898 Pictorials entitled "The 1898 Pictorial Issue of New Zealand - It's Design, Printing & Use" On pages 119 - 125 he has a section titled "5.2 The Use of the Watermark Paper" Basically he states there that there was a problem that arose when they wanted to print the stamps, of varying sizes, on watermarked paper. This was resolved with the notion that they could print all of the stamps on 2 different watermarked sheet sizes. Sheet A - Dandy Roll Type A - for the smaller stamps in the set which would be for 240 impressions in a 10 rows by 24 configuration and Sheet B - Dandy Roll Type B - for the larger stamps in the set (including the 9d) which would be for 120 impressions in a 12 rows by 10 configuration The watermarks in Type A were larger - and in Type B they were smaller. He has a diagram of the Type A sheet format but not one of the Type B format, the one we need for the 9d. So, keep a look out for any sheet of Type B that shows the rear of the sheet - and consequently the watermark layout - for the larger designs - namely the 2½d, 5d, 9d, 2/- & 5/- (not the 1½d Boer War stamp tho'). Dave Great info, Dave. I've seen larger blocks of the 2½d around, so that might be a good option for comparison. I've wanted to track down the Diamond book for a while. I'll add it to the long list of wants
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,245
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Mar 27, 2024 7:08:18 GMT
While looking for an image of a Type B sheet - for watermark positioning - I came across this beauty. From a Public Auction #37 of Mowbrays : Another unrecorded plate scratch flaw on the 1898 Pictorial 9d - similar to your 'Lake Cut' flaw Klem. Dave
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Post by redkiwi on Mar 27, 2024 8:17:00 GMT
That is a striking flaw!
I'll track down a selvage block of the 9d one day ...
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,245
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Mar 27, 2024 19:04:13 GMT
I have found this item, currently for sale on Trademe. 1898 Pictorials 2/- Grey, lower left corner positional block 6. 1906 third local print p14, NZ & star wmk, in lower left selvage block of 6 showing r12/3 re-entry. Post office fresh never hinged mintx 4, 2x light previous hinging, ex Derek Diamond. Another superb block.
ACS sale #25 lot 547 est $1,500 + 17.5% buyers premium & GST.
See photos for details.
SG 328 £1,350+ CP E20a (1) $4,825This assists us in determining the whereabouts of the selvedge watermark 'New Zealand Postage' on a Type B sheet. On this block we see parts of the letter wmk in the bottom margin but no wmk in the LHS of the selvedge. These sheets were printed 12 rows of 10, therefore rows 11 & 12 do not have a wmk. Therefore the 'lake Cut flaw' must be on one of the other 10 rows! The powers of deduction!! So, not a final answer as to the position of the 9d 'Lake Cut flaw' but a narrowing down of its position at least. Dave
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Post by redkiwi on Mar 28, 2024 7:58:15 GMT
I have found this item, currently for sale on Trademe. This assists us in determining the whereabouts of the selvedge watermark 'New Zealand Postage' on a Type B sheet. On this block we see parts of the letter wmk in the bottom margin but no wmk in the LHS of the selvedge. These sheets were printed 12 rows of 10, therefore rows 11 & 12 do not have a wmk. Therefore the 'lake Cut flaw' must be on one of the other 10 rows! The powers of deduction!! So, not a final answer as to the position of the 9d 'Lake Cut flaw' but a narrowing down of its position at least. Dave That's a great block, and interesting deduction, Dave. Furthering your reasoning - assuming that the selvage WM is positioned in the middle of the sheet, and given it's not adjacent to the bottom two stamps, it will also not be adjacent to the top two stamps, meaning it can only run parallel to rows 2 through 10. The words 'NEW ZEALAND' run vertically, with the N nearest the bottom of the sheet. The WM seemingly covers parts of 4 or at most 5 stamps, given how much of it can be seen on the Lake Cut examples. That would suggest that the WM probably starts adjacent to row 8, ending adjacent to row 5, (leaving four stamps above and below without WM) which would position the flaw at row 7. Currently unproven, but an interesting working hypothesis.
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Post by redkiwi on Mar 30, 2024 17:06:16 GMT
Two more examples of the Lake Cut Flaw found by a RPSNZ member, both from the first local printing (no WM).
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,245
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Mar 31, 2024 0:17:22 GMT
A couple of examples there Klem. That makes 7 confirmed examples now doesn't it? Confirms that it is indeed a re-curring flaw over a few years of life. Worthy of its own listing now perhaps?!
Dave
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,245
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Mar 31, 2024 0:20:35 GMT
Whilst on the lookout for more examples of the watermark on the Type B sheet, I found this one - a double perf on a bottom RHS selvedge block of 4 : NB: Found on the Spink website of the 'Derek Diamond' sale back in 2016 Dave
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,245
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Mar 31, 2024 0:24:33 GMT
This nice block was also on there. It states that there is a complete 'New Zealand' wmk on the RHS selvedge, but I cannot see it from this frontal scan of it. There isnt a back scan unfortunately! 1898 9d. purple marginal block of 14 from the right of the sheet with the right-hand columns showing complete "New Zealand" watermark, fresh unmounted mintDave
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,245
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Mar 31, 2024 0:27:51 GMT
I also have this image of the 1900 1½d Boer War stamp. Not sure from whence it came! Shown just to show what a complete sheet of 120 impressions looks like (of these larger stamps). Dave
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DK
Member
Posts: 1,245
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Mar 31, 2024 0:31:53 GMT
And speaking of the 1½d Boer War stamp - here is a plate proof sheet of the approved 'Khaki shade: Not sure where I got that image either! but have had it a few years now - probably from the time I was wondering about the 'Khaki' shade and what it actually looked like. Quite a 'cold' color compared to the much warmer 'Chestnut' color. A lack of red pigment I assume. Dave
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Post by redkiwi on Mar 31, 2024 5:19:11 GMT
A couple of examples there Klem. That makes 7 confirmed examples now doesn't it? Confirms that it is indeed a re-curring flaw over a few years of life. Worthy of its own listing now perhaps?! Dave Yes, seven examples that I know of now. It's such a clear flaw, particularly on early printings, it still surprises me that it wasn't listed in the handbooks. I'll write to CP with the evidence and see what they say.
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Post by redkiwi on Mar 31, 2024 5:20:41 GMT
And speaking of the 1½d Boer War stamp - here is a plate proof sheet of the approved 'Khaki shade: Not sure where I got that image either! but have had it a few years now - probably from the time I was wondering about the 'Khaki' shade and what it actually looked like. Quite a 'cold' color compared to the much warmer 'Chestnut' color. A lack of red pigment I assume. Dave It is a very distinct colour. I've not seen one myself.
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Post by redkiwi on Mar 31, 2024 5:43:38 GMT
This nice block was also on there. It states that there is a complete 'New Zealand' wmk on the RHS selvedge, but I cannot see it from this frontal scan of it. There isnt a back scan unfortunately! 1898 9d. purple marginal block of 14 from the right of the sheet with the right-hand columns showing complete "New Zealand" watermark, fresh unmounted mintDave I'll write a brief update for a future NZ Stamp Collector on the flaw, still hoping the person with this block (or one like it) contacts me.
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marbles
Member
Posts: 101
What I collect: Nothing too expensive for commonwealth
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Post by marbles on Apr 1, 2024 9:24:23 GMT
As already shown to redkiwi (Klem) here is my rather worn example of it. I missed it the first time around having a quick look thru' my spares books : 1903 2nd local printing. SG 314 CP E17c. wmk W7 p11 The scratch is in the correct position but there is little to no ink there anymore. It is just a 'white shadow' of where it once was. Perhaps as you stated in the article, it may have been cleaned (polished) up by the printers, or, perhaps just 'wore out' over the course of time. Dave I have one of these but not sure as I don’t think there is a scratch
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marbles
Member
Posts: 101
What I collect: Nothing too expensive for commonwealth
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Post by marbles on Apr 1, 2024 9:25:27 GMT
As you can see it is not a very good one, faded etc
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Post by redkiwi on Apr 1, 2024 14:04:15 GMT
I have one of these but not sure as I don’t think there is a scratch Hey, Marbles. Nice of you to share your example. Even the roughest stamps can be interesting. There are some marks in the same region as the Lake Cut Flaw, but I don't think this is an example of the flaw. Your stamp appears to have a notable re-entry with doubling of the frame line along the base, which indicates that it has a different plate position. Is there a watermark? If so, check it against the WM example above. RK
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