J A Sage Type I, II, and III

René  ( renden ) how would one know which is which? would you need a full sheet -or at least some selvedge with the number...and would there be a number? on the selvedge?  ( a secret code hidden inside the stamp somewhere.....) no dates are given so postmarks are of no help.  There must have been some logic behind making these distinctions unless they were all members of the hashish society!   

I should have stuck with the US.......

received an early copy of Mary today (15th or 16th edition depending whether you look at cover or preface), a combination album and catalogue (see "What's in your library" to see front back). No publication date (that I can fined) but based on catalogue entries, it went to press early 1882. ( this would  more than 10 years before Yvert & Tellier would publish their first catalogue) Below is the page from the catalogue that includes the "Type Sage" issues, which are described as (Google translation) Allegorical group; Peace and Mercury, jagged figures

I think the "jagged figures" is a reference to these stamps being perforated ( corrections from my French speaking stamp friends if this is incorrect).  The immediately noted difference is the numbering (#147 -172) is not at all similar to the now standard Yvert & Tellier. The next difference, which is of greater signifigance is there is no differentiation or mention of the Type I and II (N under U nor N under B).

The numbering system does have some secondary identification- the number followed with a "c: denotes a post card, and the detailed artwork above the Sage issues is regarding the framework of different post cards, both with a printed stamp and blank. postal letters  have the number followed by "e", but there is only one of each catalogue number.

Back to the sage, one color per denomination.... so it doesn't look like it was Maury who began  differentiating by Types or varieties (at least not yet...), with the exception th e25c blue and sky blue (#154 & 155, buth this could be what later, under Y&T became #'s 68, 78, and/or 79).  Idem.  indicates the same description as the initial description (bottom left colum, above th eimage of the 15 c Sage)


and so it continues

Type II 3rd issue 25c (1879 -1886) Yvert # 92- which was replaced in 1886 with the black on rose (Yvert # 97) because the bistre did not show well on the early pre-printed post card/ letter.  The various shades for this are relatively easy to tell apart (= a bit less guessing!)- and a few interesting postmarks. This is abouthalf  of the study lot for this denomination (8 more to go!)

Back to my own madness... Yvert # 101- a reissue of Yvert #90 except this release was on paper with a quadrille back (which does not appear to be a watermark, and  watermark fluid pretty much renders it invisible.

Maury, Ceres & Dalay^ list three (3) Die types, C, D and E, which is the same as the earlier #90, leading me to believe the same dies were reused. This is not n issue with much agreement between the various "experts". Brun. Fracon & Dtorch recognize 3** Die types with conflicting details (referred to as A,B, & C, and also have under their numbering system a # 82 **(no die type or details) , 82A, and 82B. The C, D &E Types are carried topresent day in Spinks|Maury, but the most recent edition 2022/23 greatly reduces the number of color shades.  interesting (I suppose) 1890 Catalogue for Advanced Collectors (Collin & Caman, Scott Publishing (the earliest reference to Scott I could find) mentions the second issuance of the 15 centimes Type II, but indictaes it was a forgery. There is no mention of the quadrille. The "3" for what seems to be from Maury, although I was told it was Dallay who was responsible for the Die types and larger number of color variants, even though an earlier catalogue by Dallay 2002 doesn't support this idea.

Below (next image)is the #101D, which like the 101C (and earlier #90)  has a heavier line on the top (more noticeable than sides or bottom) outermost frame, with a thinner center line, and then back to a thicker inside line and the shadowing behind Mercury's (Commerce) right thigh adjacent to the denomination box is not complete up to the point where his thigh and gown meets the top right corner of the frame around the denomination box.

Followed by the next image -Type C, the shadowing is more intense  including being a  solid block of color.

This is also true for the Type E, except the outermost frame line is thinner than the inside line like the center line.  and the shadowing under the thigh is fairly solid.

Out of a study lot of 145 stamps, 7 had tears or severe thins, OR were perfed such that the top fram could not be seen and/or the cancellation was so heavy the area of the thigh shadow  as to be indiscernible. Of the remaining 138; 75 were 101C, 58 101D, and only 5 101E. This was a surprise as the Type C had the shortest production run (1892 - 94), D (1894 - 1899), and E (1899 - 1900)
Color variations*- all shades of blue, 101C - 4 colors, 101d - 6 colors and 101E - 3 colors. In contrast other sources ragned from one single color (blue) to 6 colors spread through the 3 die type (total of 7 ) 

total confusion
Type 101D


Typ 101C


Type 101E

The 25 centimes Type II appear in two different releases. Yvert # 91 Black on lacquered () red/black on dark red issued October 1878 and withdrawn 1880

and

Yvert # 97 Black on rose (5 color nuances) issued April 1886 and withdrawn 1900

below iare several groups






a fairly wide range of colors- ts-  one might immediately suspect the very last row, two on the right end as prospective earlier issues, but a date stamp is not clear, and the far right looksa like it could be a 90 9see 4th image below). though it is hard to discern

below are stamps with clear dates which makes them the early issue (1879 postmarks)








below is the backs of the last row of stamps (in the same order, just flipped over)


the paper is red on the last two- I gave all stamps a "bath" in hot water and let them soak for a good 20 -30 minutes. The red ones did not bleed or fade.  I find nothing to indicate that this stamp was ever printed on a colored paper, so I suspect these have been altered.  If you look at the close ups above, the paper at the perfs all shows signs of the original paper color, the red ones appear to be red through a through

If anyone has another example of this stamp on red paper, please post- 

If you know anything about this, please post also!!

Maury, Ceres & Dallay 2009  (and later catalogues) uses Yvert numbering system (by agreement)   

at least they maych up to this point!

and I don't believe a word of it ! LOL   but thanks none the less

Each one has it's place (I suppose)

I won this at auction for a decent practice- it is mint but has been hinged and it appears that the very top of the stamp got attached to the album page. Not too concerned and may even soak to remove all gum s it was the color shade I was after- This  Type II, 5th issue  (1886 -1900) Yvert 97c described in  Maur Ceres & Dallay as "Slate on Salmon"  (1892) - all the other 4 variations on on a rose background (or variation there of) and are more of a "black" print color.

it's nice when the scans are fairly accurate 'colorwise'- purchasing color variants based on a scan is always a gamble

and another one from the 5th issue- yje 15 centimes blue / quadrille back. I have heard that this was an attempt by the authorities tyo combat forgeries, but that is more anecdotal as i haven't found anything concrete.  The quadrille shows up well on wet stamps, but watermark fluid (Clarity) does not show  it.... some are quite visible without any aides. Yvert6 #101 with three (3) die sub-types. Printed from 1882 until 1900


only a few more pages to go!

edit.... and of course there is a cut and paste error on this page......

I'm finishing up the Type Sage issues (well, not exactly, as I still have prefins and cancellations to layout and mount), and the stamp I worked on was the 15 c Blue Type II earlier issue (non-quadrille/plain paper back). This is probably nothing, but out of 127 stamps that I went through to look for the sub-types IIB and IIC, I came across one stamp which appears to be on a different yellow brown (almost the color of wrappers)....  There is no mention i any pf my references short of an entry in Yvert & Tellier  (#90f)  _faux pour servir_ which Google translates to _false to serve_.  I do not now if this is a reference to a forgery, of which they are mentioned in some works, though no details (and the forgeries was the reason the French changed to the quadrille back issues!) 

but that's the extent of informationI can find

The stamp on the off color paper, the image itself is a bit rough in places, but overall, if a forgery, pretty close to the original! (names on bottom of Sage and Mouchon are  "very weak")

any thoughts or information Please join in!
  





I notice if you click on the lower image so it comes up as a single larger image, the color contrast of the papers shows better- the original scan on my monitors looks different than what I see on the posted image (I have noticed this before ...)

France
Peace & Commerce Issue (French: "Type Sage")
Sc64-108, Issued 1876-1900

Next to Stan's (stainlessb ) excellent holdings and detailed analysis of these stamps, my single Hagner stock sheet pales by comparison.  I am, nonetheless, happy to have finally assembled it a few weeks ago, and I have just been slow to post.  I am still missing a few stamps from the general sequence, but I have included a couple of nice color varieties.  I will do a complete caption in the next day or so, with a catalgue description for all the stamps shown.  I also owe a special thanks to Xavier (hrdoktorx ), who took me with him to a stamp show in Provence while I was living in France, and it was there back in 2019 that I acquired some of the nicest examples that I have in this series.


Type I issues: The "N" of "INV" is under the "B" of "REPUBLIQUE"
Row 1: France, Sc64-65, 67 (missing Sc66, 68)
Row 2: France, Sc69-70, 73-76 (missing Sc71-72)
Type II issues: The "N" of "INV" is under the "U" of "REPUBLIQUE"
Row 3: France, Sc78, 80 (missing Sc77, 79)
Row 4: France, Sc81-81a, 82-82a, 83-84
Row 5: France, Sc86-86a, 88-89. 90-90a, 91 (missing Sc87)
Row 6: France, Sc92, 92b, 93, 94-94a, 95, 95b, 96
Row 7: France, Sc97, 98-98a, 99-102
Row 8: France, Sc103-104
Type I issues: The "N" of "INV" is under the "B" of "REPUBLIQUE"
Row 8: France, Sc106, 108 (missing Sc105, 107)

while working on my Sage "Key", I came across the stamp (#83 IIBb, black on blue grey) shown below. Unfortunately it has a major flaw, but what caught my eye was the reverse. There is no mention of papier mince, papier haché or recto-verso, and I'm not surte if it is just thin-transparent paper, or if this is a case of ink transfer (recto-verso)? 

yes indeed! also tagging gstamps

Hi Stan, stainlessb
I think your stamp has a print on the back (if the paper is regular)
I think I posted my example in another thread:




Please help me with a catalog value - this variety is not in Yvert-Tellier but I know for sure that it is mentioned in the other French catalogs.